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Post by Vinya on Jul 18, 2006 18:51:04 GMT -5
Negative. Infact, when I went back to Public school and had my hands infront of my face, someone asked in that "Oooh you are soooo bussttteeed" voice whether I was praying or not. Also, Christmas plays have been shut down by the ACLU... and I don't really think of Christmas as a Christian thing anymore. again, thats because you can't force it. Not all children are Christian, don't make them perform in plays for a holiday they don't celebrate. People are hypocrites, Christian parents would have a hissyfit if their children were putting on a play for Passover.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 18, 2006 19:53:23 GMT -5
Negative. Infact, when I went back to Public school and had my hands infront of my face, someone asked in that "Oooh you are soooo bussttteeed" voice whether I was praying or not. Also, Christmas plays have been shut down by the ACLU... and I don't really think of Christmas as a Christian thing anymore. again, thats because you can't force it. Not all children are Christian, don't make them perform in plays for a holiday they don't celebrate. People are hypocrites, Christian parents would have a hissyfit if their children were putting on a play for Passover. Indeed, but I don't think you're forced to perform in that play. It would've been a much better solution to just have it so the child can opt out, instead of stopping the play.
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mastab
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Post by mastab on Jul 18, 2006 20:22:36 GMT -5
I am a Baptist Christian and have a strong faith in God. Now I'm here to bring up a point that could be a good debate topic: As most athiests believe that the Big Bang was how the universe started. Now, how could this happen without a higher power guiding it? You see, religion is based on faith not fact which is why a lot of people see athiesm as a better belief. They want facts and not faith. You see, athiests "usually" don't have any experience with God in their lives which is why they have no faith. And when they try to acquire faith they sometimes substitute logic for faith, which makes them turn to athiesm. Now, the Big Bang did not just happen, there HAS to be a power there doing it. Whether it be the Christian God I believe in or Muhammed(sorry if sp mean no offense) or whatever. To say that there is no God what so eve is juust being stubborn. There has to be one it doesn't just go "Bang, UNIVERSE" for no reason. If I remember right in science energy cannot be destroyed nor created, but in this case it somehow is, now how is this possible without a divine aid? Some of you may say "Well what created God then?" well TBH anyone who has faith in him does not know,all He states is that He is the beginning and end. The Alpha and the Omega. I don't know how to explain that though, no one who has faith like me, do either. Now my point is there HAS to be a God, whether it be my beliefs or not. I am open to the fact that my religion may not be right, but I have such a strong belief in it, I try not to....... Nothing guided the big bang, and there was not one big bang, the universe has been constructed and destroyed millions of times. Gravity is always pulling matter together. After billions of years all the matter and energy in the universe is in a giant pile of it, if you will. Then its extreme gravitational pull causes it to implode on itself and explode, similar to how our stars are created. Then all the matter is tossed out into the corners of space where it clumps together into protostars, protoplanets, and all sorts of things until eventually it all becomes a giant pile again and it repeats. Energy was not created or destroyed in the last big bang, it was converted. Oh, and just so you know Islam does not believe Muhammad is God, they believe he is the last prophet of God. Yay ignorance! The 'who created god' arguement is a bad one, I admit that. It is possible for something to have always existed, just like the energy that constitues our universe has. There does not have to be a God. I've disproved all of your points for why he has to exist so far, got any more? EDIT: Read my first paragraph. EDIT2: Right you are. Matter can be converted into light, that proves it right there. Einstein pwns.
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Post by Britney on Jul 18, 2006 21:26:38 GMT -5
I would love to believe in a god, I really would. If I could absolve myself of all responsibility for every time I've messed up, if I knew that no matter what happened everything was going to be ok, then I would probably be a much happier person.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 18, 2006 21:46:04 GMT -5
That's a radical belief that God is to blame for all. I take responsibility for my actions, because, quite frankly, I don't think Nena is bored enough to mess with my puny little life. In other words, I dislike the thought of Divine Intervention.
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Post by comike14 on Jul 19, 2006 9:09:03 GMT -5
I would love to believe in a god, I really would. If I could absolve myself of all responsibility for every time I've messed up, if I knew that no matter what happened everything was going to be ok, then I would probably be a much happier person. I think you miss the point. God doesn't exist to provide excuses for the bone-headed things we do. We do have free will, and we make our own decisions. Yours is to not believe in God, which is fine. I just want to point out that you might be doing it for the wrong reasons. Don't be dissuaded by religion. Religion has really screwed up a lot of concepts that humanity held in the past. God isn't vengeful, he doesn't punish people, and he in fact isn't a single entity sitting in the clouds dealing thunderbolts. He doesn't play the strings of humanity like puppets. Only people play the strings of other people like puppets. Only people judge and punish other people and themselves. I don't want to say all religion is wrong. Far from it. But religion has introduced dogma into the overall equation, and dogma can pervert very real messages and truths to the point where they're warped beyond anything recognizable as fair and just. Keep in mind that the concept of God has existed for much longer than organized religion. Hell, Christianity is only 2000 years old. Humanity is MUCH older than that. If people have a bone to pick, they should pick it with the PEOPLE that compose the churches, not with God. Church, religion, sermons, services, worship, etc, are all man-made. They're fallable and full of holes. Wars over religion start because people, in their ego, profess that their DOGMA is the only right dogma. Why are islamic extremists all out for blood right now? You blame religion, right? Well, christians, islamics, and muslims all worship the same God. In fact, as per written faith, they all come from the same man, Abraham. So technically, those religions all consider themselves to be kin--brothers if you will. Why fight? Dogma, which is inherent within religion, which is created by man. No other reason. God != Religion. and Religion != God.
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melchior1
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Post by melchior1 on Jul 19, 2006 23:48:40 GMT -5
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. That argument can be applied to both camps. An eternal nothingness? THAT would be hell. Actually, it's not that bad. I'd equate it to when I was knocked out while getting my wisdom teeth removed. You don't feel anything, or think. so are you saying that you would still be? or that when you die you're gone for ever, never to return, blinked out of existence completely?
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 19, 2006 23:50:13 GMT -5
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. That argument can be applied to both camps. Actually, it's not that bad. I'd equate it to when I was knocked out while getting my wisdom teeth removed. You don't feel anything, or think. so are you saying that you would still be? or that when you die you're gone for ever, never to return, blinked out of existence completely? I find that hard to believe... Nena will save us all, don't worry.
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Post by Britney on Jul 20, 2006 0:01:45 GMT -5
I would love to believe in a god, I really would. If I could absolve myself of all responsibility for every time I've messed up, if I knew that no matter what happened everything was going to be ok, then I would probably be a much happier person. I think you miss the point. God doesn't exist to provide excuses for the bone-headed things we do. We do have free will, and we make our own decisions. Yours is to not believe in God, which is fine. I just want to point out that you might be doing it for the wrong reasons. Don't be dissuaded by religion. Religion has really screwed up a lot of concepts that humanity held in the past. God isn't vengeful, he doesn't punish people, and he in fact isn't a single entity sitting in the clouds dealing thunderbolts. He doesn't play the strings of humanity like puppets. Only people play the strings of other people like puppets. Only people judge and punish other people and themselves. I don't want to say all religion is wrong. Far from it. But religion has introduced dogma into the overall equation, and dogma can pervert very real messages and truths to the point where they're warped beyond anything recognizable as fair and just. Keep in mind that the concept of God has existed for much longer than organized religion. Hell, Christianity is only 2000 years old. Humanity is MUCH older than that. If people have a bone to pick, they should pick it with the PEOPLE that compose the churches, not with God. Church, religion, sermons, services, worship, etc, are all man-made. They're fallable and full of holes. Wars over religion start because people, in their ego, profess that their DOGMA is the only right dogma. Why are islamic extremists all out for blood right now? You blame religion, right? Well, christians, islamics, and muslims all worship the same God. In fact, as per written faith, they all come from the same man, Abraham. So technically, those religions all consider themselves to be kin--brothers if you will. Why fight? Dogma, which is inherent within religion, which is created by man. No other reason. God != Religion. and Religion != God. I don't understand. Knowing that we were created by a god (created rationally by a superior intellect) would only absolve ourselves of responsibility for our actions (I didn't have a choice to exist - God made me, along with the rest of the world, therefor he is responsible for what I encounter in life and my consequent choices). Also, if I believe in a god and an afterlife (which you may consider dogma, you may not), then as long as I follow the 10 commandments, then it doesn't matter what happens to me; I will spend eternity in bliss. I would like to think that way, but as there is no evidence for it I don't see it happening.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 20, 2006 0:05:08 GMT -5
That sounds awfully Lawyer-ly. Are we going to have to purge Lawyers?
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melchior1
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Post by melchior1 on Jul 20, 2006 0:09:12 GMT -5
wellll.........if our universe is run by a set amount of energy and that energy was always there, what spawned the big bang? has it always been happening? if there is an infinite amount of enrgy? infinity is a dificult concept, if energy is infinite what keeps us from being destroyed by this massive amount of energy? our mere existence is a statistical anomolysomething like 1 out of (number that wouldn't fit on the internet), bt then again, as time progresses, every moment is statistically implausible in itself
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melchior1
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Post by melchior1 on Jul 20, 2006 0:15:02 GMT -5
(I didn't have a choice to exist - God made me, along with the rest of the world, therefor he is responsible for what I encounter in life and my consequent choices). edit: I suck at typing the bible never says that God created you, it says he created Adam and Eve, gave them free will, and pretty much let history unwind from there(intervening a few times when he saw fit)
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Post by comike14 on Jul 20, 2006 8:43:09 GMT -5
I don't understand. Knowing that we were created by a god (created rationally by a superior intellect) would only absolve ourselves of responsibility for our actions (I didn't have a choice to exist - God made me, along with the rest of the world, therefor he is responsible for what I encounter in life and my consequent choices). Also, if I believe in a god and an afterlife (which you may consider dogma, you may not), then as long as I follow the 10 commandments, then it doesn't matter what happens to me; I will spend eternity in bliss. I would like to think that way, but as there is no evidence for it I don't see it happening. No, no, no. I'm not sure you caught my point. God created us, yes, but he created us with our own free will. We can do whatever we choose to do with it. Are your parent's responsible for everything you do when you're independent and allowed to make your own choices? The idea of God existing in no way absolves anyone of personal responsibility--not at all in the slightest. And regarding an afterlife... An afterlife and a belief in one isn't dogma. The ten commandments, while a good way to live, are simple dogma. Anything that says, "This is how you live your life, otherwise you're going to hell" is dogma. The concepts of heaven and hell are dogma. You run your own life, and make your own choices. Religion and dogmatic practices are what's responsible for making anyone think otherwise, not God. EDIT: The bible is great, but it's allegory and symbolism. To take what it says literally is missing the point entirely.
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Post by redyellow on Jul 21, 2006 7:37:41 GMT -5
Coming from an Australian family, we weren't exactly religious in the first place (we are on of the least religious places in the world), so I didn't revert to atheism from any sort of external or internal pressure. However, I denied the possibility of any religion earlier on in my life from simple logical conclusions and I have no need to be converted.
You mentioned that someone must of created the universe and therefore god must exist, but there si a simple flaw with your logic. Who created god? Did he instantaneously appear judt like you invision the universe to according to science; maybe you could head in to philosophy and say that he was created by us, but he exists because of that. Maybe we created ourselves? Anyway I am getting off-topic, but my point is that currently our understanding of the universe does involve this instantaneous popping in to existance, just like god probably did (if he exists).
Outside the universe there is nothing, not even what you and I perceive as nothing exists, there is no time, no objects; I am simply unable to describe nothingness in words. So when that small little ball of energy -the beginnings of our universe- exploded, expanded and ultimately created the huge thing that you know today with mass and space that is still considered nothingness, but exists. It expanded into this 'non-existance' and the nothingness that I mentioned earlier suddenly existed; which I admit even starts to extend in to the realms of religion.
The smallest, oldest and largest detail in science will always be unexplainable, because such things will never exist and you will always be able to reach further into it.
eg. We have divided atoms into electrons, protons and neutrons and those into quarks; I suspect that we will end up dividing these further.
"An eternal nothingness? THAT would be hell."
You won't know about it when it happens to die, you have all the intelligence of a rock, an inanimate object; but even that is questionable.
When something is seemingly unexplainable, they attribute it to 'magic' and the actions of a higher being, regardless of what occurred and whether it explained later. It is human nature to try and make sense of your surroundings and we satisfy this instinct in several ways, some even completely illogical. The norse explained the existance of amber, as the eternal tears of the almighty goddess Freyja, which we all surely dismiss. Science attempts to make sense of it all in a methodical manner, which has ultimately led to the creation of many techologies that would of previously been attributed to the devil, or even a miracle.
Science is also non-linear, so the stuff you learn in schools may be wrong, but it is currently the most probable reason; when the creation of technologies is spawned from these facts, more weight is added to their existance. I believe in evolution; proof for it occurrs every day in genetics, the sudden changes in populations of animals features, fossils from the past and the slight yet evident adaptations that vary amongst the human populace.
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 21, 2006 9:26:24 GMT -5
I am going to come out right and say this.
I notice the hypocrisy on both sides......
Religion: "Big Bang can't come from nothing." Evolutionists: "God can't come out of nothing."
I'm staying as the fringe group (perhaps similar to some of you, probably different to most.)
In my eyes, we have the evidence of evolution, in the sense that you can look at how we came from amphibian creatures to the terrrestrial creatures we are today.
Ok, i'm not necessarily saying we started out in the water, but its definitely something i'd consider.
Gah, I know I have far more to say, but I just don't have the words to say them.
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Post by comike14 on Jul 21, 2006 14:12:24 GMT -5
I am going to come out right and say this. I notice the hypocrisy on both sides...... Religion: "Big Bang can't come from nothing." Evolutionists: "God can't come out of nothing." I'm staying as the fringe group (perhaps similar to some of you, probably different to most.) In my eyes, we have the evidence of evolution, in the sense that you can look at how we came from amphibian creatures to the terrrestrial creatures we are today. Ok, i'm not necessarily saying we started out in the water, but its definitely something i'd consider. Gah, I know I have far more to say, but I just don't have the words to say them. I know what you're saying. There's no real way anyone can deny evolution, or the Big Bang, or anything like that. But science and the belief in God are hardly mutually exclusive. For all we know, all that we are, and all the stuff of the universe, everything that is, and the universe itself--could all just be a thought in the mind of God. How could we get outside of a thought to prove it's existence? Who knows. I know God is real from personal experience. That's good enough for me.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 21, 2006 15:58:02 GMT -5
Evolution vs. Creationism? What?
Why should it be Science vs. Religion?
One being proven does not mean the other is completely false.
For all we know, Nena could have jump-started evolution.
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 21, 2006 16:07:09 GMT -5
Are you talking about the pop singer when you say Nena? If so, stop spamming.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 21, 2006 16:18:03 GMT -5
Technically, in our mortal word, Nena was a band. Gabriele was the singer, I believe. But those of us with *cough* ascended spirits, know it's a Goddess. So thus it's not spam, you lose.
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Post by morty14 on Jul 21, 2006 18:11:41 GMT -5
I like to point to the omnipotence paradox to prove that the Abrahamic (and all other religions which claim an omnipotent deity) religions must be wrong on at least one point. And if the "word of God" is wrong on one account, I see plenty of room for it to be wrong on many other accounts. I personally do not believe in any deity's existance. If I was shown hard evidence to the contrary, of course I would change my position. As of yet, I haven't seen anything of the sort. In fact, the more I look at it the further and further does the existance of a "creator" seem from reality. Then again, what is reality but preceptions? I digress. My position requires no faith, it relies solely on facts. Currently, all facts I have seen point to the non-existance of a deity and instead of simple processes being repeated many times over by natural forces.
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Post by lucia on Jul 21, 2006 18:25:20 GMT -5
EDIT: The bible is great, but it's allegory and symbolism. To take what it says literally is missing the point entirely.
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Post by Anon on Jul 22, 2006 4:31:24 GMT -5
I think the people who wrote the Bible intended for it to be literal. Turning the whole thing into vague symbolism is the Christians way of stopping it becoming totally unbelievable.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 22, 2006 6:22:19 GMT -5
Or, you could just be clutching at straws?
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Post by Anon on Jul 22, 2006 6:45:56 GMT -5
Or, you could just be clutching at straws? Excuse me? My argument against the existence of god is earlier in the thread, I was merely replying to Comike's post.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 22, 2006 6:46:17 GMT -5
Alrighty then, my apologies.
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