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Post by bigphatty on Jul 18, 2006 10:25:01 GMT -5
I'm not being stubborn. I'm not trying to defend my religion. I'm open to the fact that mine or any other one on this earth may be wrong. But I will not be swayed to say there is no "Higher Power" at all. That's the point I'm making. It's all based on faith my friend, which you apparently haven't experienced and I hope one day you do.
Then what created it? I didn't ask what it's made of.....
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Post by Hunessai on Jul 18, 2006 10:25:30 GMT -5
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. That argument can be applied to both camps. An eternal nothingness? THAT would be hell. Actually, it's not that bad. I'd equate it to when I was knocked out while getting my wisdom teeth removed. You don't feel anything, or think.
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Post by Anon on Jul 18, 2006 10:29:15 GMT -5
I accept that the idea of God having always existed is possible, by the fact I believe the universe to have always existed. But what I don't accept is when people say "The universe must have had a beginning, and so it must have been created by a God" and then we say "But who created God?" and they say "No one, God always existed." "Well couldn't the universe have always have existed?" "No, everything must have a beginning", they say. "But then where did God come from?" Ect, ect, ect.
I accept the idea that God could have always existed as long as theists accept the idea that the universe could also have always existed.
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Post by bigphatty on Jul 18, 2006 10:29:30 GMT -5
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. That argument can be applied to both camps. This is true there is no fact. But that's why athiests are athiests, they want "fact" too much and try not to keep and open mind because fact makes it seem dumb to do so.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jul 18, 2006 10:30:21 GMT -5
Your explanation can hold no water. You weren't inside my brain at the time. I knew it was God calling me because when He said those words a burden was lifted. And I've nver been able to make up a voice in my head before. You need to understand how the human brain works in order to understand my explanation. Dont take this offensively because it by no means is meant as an attack, but you simply will not understand anything I try to explain to you on this subject, so i'll save us both the time of arguing over it Yup. But if you were a real athiest you would not have swayed because you heard a voice calling to you. Remember, its not about being skeptical, its about being logical. I've seen some pretty trippy things in my younger years, some I still cannot explain to this day. But I wont ever stop seaking the truth. Science made me ask the questions like "Well we KNOW god didnt create the earth like in genesis, so what do I beleive, did god create the big bang?" Religion gave me conclusions like "This whole cult was designed to oppress people for a means on social conditioning in order to survive as a speicies". I could give examples if you would like... but trust me it will be a long an arguouse arguement with no winner.
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Post by Anon on Jul 18, 2006 10:30:48 GMT -5
Supernovae exploding, I believe. They explode, and rush back in on themselves, creating a speck of matter with an immense gravitational pull, enough that light can't escape it.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jul 18, 2006 10:32:07 GMT -5
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. That argument can be applied to both camps. Yeah, thats why I hate these arguments . Exactly what I mean by my "before you were born" comparasin.
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Post by comike14 on Jul 18, 2006 10:33:54 GMT -5
My well thought out reply: This is the debate forum. Thats all I want to say Heh, true that.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jul 18, 2006 10:35:10 GMT -5
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. That argument can be applied to both camps. This is true there is no fact. But that's why athiests are athiests, they want "fact" too much and try not to keep and open mind because fact makes it seem dumb to do so. But religious people dont keep an open mind, they are too busy thinking about how things concern them.
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Post by bigphatty on Jul 18, 2006 10:36:28 GMT -5
[quoteYup. But if you were a real athiest you would not have swayed because you heard a voice calling to you. Remember, its not about being skeptical, its about being logical.[/quote] The thing is, I wasn't an athiest before I came to Him. I believed in Him and blamed Him for all my problems in the world and hated Him for it. I've seen some pretty trippy stuff too. You don't KNOW if there is a God, but to say that this all happened for no apparent reason is not keeping an open mind.
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Post by bigphatty on Jul 18, 2006 10:39:20 GMT -5
That's because my religion tells me do be concerned.
I keep an open mind to the fact that I may be wrong, but my faith tells me to do otherwise.
If I were to base everything on fact I'd be an athiest too, probably a druggy....
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Post by Anon on Jul 18, 2006 10:39:39 GMT -5
It did happen for reasons, just not the reasons you believe in. Why are your beliefs more open minded than my beliefs?
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Post by comike14 on Jul 18, 2006 10:42:20 GMT -5
God is a personal revelation. No amount of discussion on the subject will change anyone's mind. That said, debate is fine as long as no one enters with the objective of changing anyone.
I hope everyone here realizes that when I speak on the subject, I don't speak for any religion or with any religion in mind. I speak on my own personal truths.
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Post by bigphatty on Jul 18, 2006 10:43:24 GMT -5
It did happen for reasons, just not the reasons you believe in. Why are your beliefs more open minded than my beliefs? How do you know? You don't know if it were for the reasons you believe in. But to say that a "Higher Power", not neccesarily the one I believe in, doesn't exist is stupid.(not attacking you but science itself). Like I said before, it's all based on faith when it comes to religion and fact when it comes to athiesm.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jul 18, 2006 10:45:26 GMT -5
The thing is, I wasn't an athiest before I came to Him. I believed in Him and blamed Him for all my problems in the world and hated Him for it. Ah, dw then. I was under the impression you were a agnostic/athiest who was reached by the light. Your right, I dont know if there is a god, however based on my logic, I cant see how one would exist. Thus I beleive no higher power can exist on the terms we apply for a god. Why isnt it keeping an open mind? Why does everything have to have a reason? Isnt that a little close minded and self centered? Every form of science relys on the basis of probablity, some things have a 99.99999999999999999999999999% chance of happening, others have a 0.00000000000000001% chance of happening. Science and pure logic can not co-exist with religion because religion is based on something that controls, or a reason. Evolution is random. Controlled evolution with a reason is impossible by deffinition and is not evolution, but intelligent design *rolls eyes* I'd have more faith int he bible than ID.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jul 18, 2006 10:48:17 GMT -5
It did happen for reasons, just not the reasons you believe in. Why are your beliefs more open minded than my beliefs? How do you know? You don't know if it were for the reasons you believe in. But to say that a "Higher Power", not neccesarily the one I believe in, doesn't exist is stupid.(not attacking you but science itself). Like I said before, it's all based on faith when it comes to religion and fact when it comes to athiesm. Its as stupid to you as beleiving in a higher power is to me. Athiesm does not need fact, there are things called inferences which most science we cant cant sence is based on.
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Post by Anon on Jul 18, 2006 10:49:17 GMT -5
No more or less than you do.
I disagree. It is not stupid. It is logical. God is like the herring swarm I mentioned in my earlier post. Only he's a herring swarm we can't disprove.
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Ratwar
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Horkers Rule!
Posts: 1,981
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Post by Ratwar on Jul 18, 2006 11:39:52 GMT -5
Alright, I'm going to address the original post, since I'm way to lazy to worry about the religious argument in the rest of the thread. I've found position in the world of belief that I'm happy with, so I don't give a damn about what the rest of you think.
Anyways, the cause of the big bang is still very much up to debate. It is very possible that our universe has undergone multiple big bangs over the course of it's existance. As for the cause, well, we don't know. The only things we have that are even slightly like the particle that caused the big bang would be super massive Black holes, which are still only an incredibly small fraction of the mass. Asking us to know the cause of the big bang is like putting a rock inside a box and then asking us to describe a mountian. It is VERY hard. (Now if this makes you think the big bang never occured, I'll assure you that there is plenty of evidence that in occured, we just can't really describe it.
As for God being the beginning and the end, perhaps God is is the Big Bang...
Oh, and the Muhammad isn't the Islamic god. The Islamic God is actually, well, God (or Allah as it is called in Arabic). In fact, they believe that the Christian God is the same as theirs, although they regect the idea that Jesus was the son of God (an idea that Jesus probably would have regected himself). What do they teach you kids in school these days?
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Post by bigphatty on Jul 18, 2006 11:52:04 GMT -5
Or maybe he made the Big Bang? But what I'm trying get across is that this all didn't just happen for no good reason something powerful had to of had control over it. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, or at least that's what science suggests. Can't teach religion in school in the United States. How could I forget it was Allah, my stepdad is Muslim. I'm retarded sometimes.
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Ratwar
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Horkers Rule!
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Post by Ratwar on Jul 18, 2006 11:59:09 GMT -5
Or maybe he made the Big Bang? But what I'm trying get across is that this all didn't just happen for no good reason something powerful had to of had control over it. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, or at least that's what science suggests. Actually, science says E=mc 2... So Energy(E) can be converted into matter(m)... (oh, and c=the speed of light). I'd say that thus far the most powerful events in the universe are by their own nature uncontrolled. If it can be controlled, it isn't all that powerful, is it? Can't teach religion in school in the United States. Actually, you can teach it all you want in Private Schools. In Public Schools, it is a slightly different matter. You can still talk about it, and teach what they believe, just not practice the religion. Thus, if I was a teacher, I could say, "Muslims pray 5 times a day." I couldn't say, "You will all pray five times a day like Muslims." As for a muslim stepfather, that's really odd considering your Baptist...
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Post by Anon on Jul 18, 2006 12:01:24 GMT -5
Or maybe he made the Big Bang? But what I'm trying get across is that this all didn't just happen for no good reason something powerful had to of had control over it. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, or at least that's what science suggests. If energy can't be created or destroyed, that means there is a certain amount of energy in the universe. Or an infinite amount, if the universe is infinite as I believe. So the amount of energy in the universe is constant - now I believe that the energy which is always there has always existed, like the universe itself, as a law of physics. It was never created, and has never been destroyed. It just is, and has always been. Now, the Big Bang didn't have to create energy. The Big Bang didn't create the universe, depending on how you define the universe. Big explosion, stuff rushed out, and filled an area of the universe (you can't really use relative terms in the description of an infinite thing - the stuff which came out of the Big Bang fill an infinitely small area of the universe, the important thing is realising that there is lots and lots of empty space outside of what the Big Bang filled, possibly with other areas of filled things from other Big Bangs (an infinite number of such, the universe being infinite). I hope you understand that, I haven't gone back and read it through and I think it might be a bit confusing. Infinity is so difficult to describe. How silly. How are you meant to respect others beliefs when you don't know them. They teach them to us over here.
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Gold_skywalker
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Official Forum Socialist
Darth Caedus
Posts: 1,121
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 18, 2006 18:36:52 GMT -5
Listen to Jesus, Jimmy, just say no to Marijuana. Listen to Jesus Jimmy, don't turn your back ooonn God, ooooon GOD! YEAH!
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Muad'dib
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Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 18, 2006 18:38:14 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Jesus isn't against marijuana.
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Post by Vinya on Jul 18, 2006 18:41:34 GMT -5
I am a Baptist Christian and have a strong faith in God. Now I'm here to bring up a point that could be a good debate topic: As most athiests believe that the Big Bang was how the universe started. Now, how could this happen without a higher power guiding it? You see, religion is based on faith not fact which is why a lot of people see athiesm as a better belief. They want facts and not faith. You see, athiests "usually" don't have any experience with God in their lives which is why they have no faith. And when they try to acquire faith they sometimes substitute logic for faith, which makes them turn to athiesm. Now, the Big Bang did not just happen, there HAS to be a power there doing it. Whether it be the Christian God I believe in or Muhammed(sorry if sp mean no offense) or whatever. To say that there is no God what so eve is juust being stubborn. There has to be one it doesn't just go "Bang, UNIVERSE" for no reason. If I remember right in science energy cannot be destroyed nor created, but in this case it somehow is, now how is this possible without a divine aid? Some of you may say "Well what created God then?" well TBH anyone who has faith in him does not know,all He states is that He is the beginning and end. The Alpha and the Omega. I don't know how to explain that though, no one who has faith like me, do either. Now my point is there HAS to be a God, whether it be my beliefs or not. I am open to the fact that my religion may not be right, but I have such a strong belief in it, I try not to....... I'm a Christian in the sense that I believe in God and believe Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind....but I believe in the Big Bang theory, just as I believe in evolution. Yeah...I do think perhaps God jumpstarted the Big Bang and it took over. just my two cents Also: on seperation of church and faith, yes you can discuss it in schools, yes, it is legal for students to have prayer groups in public schools. As Ratty pointed out, forcing it on others though is what is wrong, and I think forcing religion on anybody is just wrong anyway.... (not to mention obnoxious)
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 18, 2006 18:47:18 GMT -5
Negative. Infact, when I went back to Public school and had my hands infront of my face, someone asked in that "Oooh you are soooo bussttteeed" voice whether I was praying or not.
Also, Christmas plays have been shut down by the ACLU... and I don't really think of Christmas as a Christian thing anymore.
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