Why there has to be a God: Whether it mine or not

[bigphatty]

I am a Baptist Christian and have a strong faith in God. Now I'm here to bring up a point that could be a good debate topic:

As most athiests believe that the Big Bang was how the universe started. Now, how could this happen without a higher power guiding it? You see, religion is based on faith not fact which is why a lot of people see athiesm as a better belief. They want facts and not faith. You see, athiests "usually" don't have any experience with God in their lives which is why they have no faith. And when they try to acquire faith they sometimes substitute logic for faith, which makes them turn to athiesm.

Now, the Big Bang did not just happen, there HAS to be a power there doing it. Whether it be the Christian God I believe in or Muhammed(sorry if sp mean no offense) or whatever. To say that there is no God what so eve is juust being stubborn. There has to be one it doesn't just go "Bang, UNIVERSE" for no reason. If I remember right in science energy cannot be destroyed nor created, but in this case it somehow is, now how is this possible without a divine aid?

Some of you may say "Well what created God then?" well TBH anyone who has faith in him does not know,all He states is that He is the beginning and end. The Alpha and the Omega. I don't know how to explain that though, no one who has faith like me, do either.

Now my point is there HAS to be a God, whether it be my beliefs or not. I am open to the fact that my religion may not be right, but I have such a strong belief in it, I try not to.......

[ExtraCheeZ]

You dont think millions of hard core athiests dont realise this?

2 things.

For god to exist, he has to have a beginning. If he could just start to begin, why couldnt the energy and matter that created the big bag just begin to exist out of nothingness?

The thing I hate about religion is its just organised superstition. We dont know and cant imagion how the universe was created so we instantly patch up that question with "God did it". How about before we just say "god did it" we try and figure out the answer logicaly.

Its not the fact that something cant come from nothing, its the fact we dont KNOW how something could possibly come from nothing.

Once we figure out the answer there will be no need for a god.

[bigphatty]

Its not the fact that something cant come from nothing, its the fact we dont KNOW how something could possibly come from nothing.

Once we figure out the answer there will be no need for a god.

EXACTLY. We don't know that's why we have faith in that it will happen. I cannot go and prove the existence or non existence of God. That's why some athiests are hard to persuade they are ignorant of it. They have never had an experience to justify his existence. I have though. He came to me at a time when suicide and drugs were in abundance, and thankfully he did because I had the knife at my wrists.....

God will never come out directly and state that he is the Creator. Until the times of Revelation(which are upon us BTW if you've ever read Revelations and Matthew).

[Muad'dib]

Even with there is possibly a God in my head as I do, I can't do anything with it as I have nothing to say the Christian ideal is right over any other one.

[bigphatty]

newbiezilla said:

Even with there is possibly a God in my head as I do, I can't do anything with it as I have nothing to say the Christian ideal is right over any other one.

Explain...

[Muad'dib]

The Christian ideal could be right, the Pagan one could be right, the Buddhist is a more atheistic spiritual path, but that could be right....

Et cetera, et cetera.

I have studied the ways of the Har Krsna, and there is no way I could live the lifestyle they want. Same with Buddhism.

[bigphatty]

newbiezilla said:

The Christian ideal could be right, the Pagan one could be right, the Buddhist is a more atheistic spiritual path, but that could be right....

Et cetera, et cetera.

I have studied the ways of the Har Krsna, and there is no way I could live the lifestyle they want. Same with Buddhism.

That's why I used the word faith.

[ExtraCheeZ]

bigphatty said:

Its not the fact that something cant come from nothing, its the fact we dont KNOW how something could possibly come from nothing.

Once we figure out the answer there will be no need for a god.

EXACTLY. We don't know that's why we have faith in that it will happen. I cannot go and prove the existence or non existence of God. That's why some athiests are hard to persuade they are ignorant of it. They have never had an experience to justify his existence. I have though. He came to me at a time when suicide and drugs were in abundance, and thankfully he did because I had the knife at my wrists.....

God will never come out directly and state that he is the Creator. Until the times of Revelation(which are upon us BTW if you've ever read Revelations and Matthew).

Your calling us ignorent? You think no athiest has had an experince where they ask themselves "how can this be science?". Every time I feel love I wonder to myself how it could be a simple product of evolution, just a tool for survival because it feels so great, then I remind my self why it feels so great and the logic behind it gives me an answer to my question.

I also went through drugs, violence and depression, I got out of it myself. I didnt need gods love, guidence or protection, because that just made it worse. God is an outdated dogma for people who refuse to see the truth on the grounds it depresses them.

I am not ignorent. All REAL atheists I know arent ignorent. Infact about 90% of the christians I know were ignorent. Thats not a generalisation, that is my experince of growing up in a catholic family and going to catholic schools all my life.

There are 2 types of atheists, the ones who do it to be cool, as an escape from the rules of a religion or because they beleive god abandoned them and thus he couldnt be real. Then the ones who use logic to come to the conclusion that no god could possibly exist. I can tell you the second type are rarely ignorent and the first type are just waiting to see a miricle to coax them into a cult... hopefully for them its a major religion like christianity and not one that takes them to the planet blisstonia.

[bigphatty]

I also went through drugs, violence and depression, I got out of it myself. I didnt need gods love, guidence or protection, because that just made it worse. God is an outdated dogma for people who refuse to see the truth on the grounds it depresses them.

Well good for you. I had to have help from Him because I had just dug the knife a little bit into my skin and was about to start hacking away.

I am not ignorent. All REAL atheists I know arent ignorent. Infact about 90% of the christians I know were ignorent. Thats not a generalisation, that is my experince of growing up in a catholic family and going to catholic schools all my life.

Let me rephrase my interpritation of ignorance: They have not seen any evidence that there is a God. I used it out of context.

There are 2 types of atheists, the ones who do it to be cool, as an escape from the rules of a religion or because they beleive god abandoned them and thus he couldnt be real. Then the ones who use logic to come to the conclusion that no god could possibly exist. I can tell you the second type are rarely ignorent and the first type are just waiting to see a miricle to coax them into a cult... hopefully for them its a major religion like christianity and not one that takes them to the planet blisstonia.

Hopefully you guys will see one day......

[comike14]

I agree with the OP, to an extent. I will, however, say that my beliefs aren't based on faith, but on experience on multiple levels. All religions speak of the same God--there's no such thing as the CHRISTAIN God, or the ISLAMIC God. It's all just God--the Creator, the Great Spirit, Allah, The Source, Yawy, the Light, etc, etc, etc. Druidic practices, shaminstic practices, native practices, all call for one Creator of everything. Don't assume that religion must be false because they can't even agree on a creator. They all worship the same entity in different ways, much how you and I will always see the same event from two different angles.

I agree there must be a God. I began my path as a hard-core athiest. I spent a good 10 years of my life pouring through the logic of athiesism, and the illogical nature of religion. And indeed, religion IS illogical. But not God. God isn't man-made, but religion is. In my research, I began to see certain core similarities in every religion I studied. Then I looked at tribal and native cultures, and found that even they have those threads in common. I started seeing and experiencing things that I couldn't explain away as mere illusions. So eventually, I couldn't deny God's power and presence.

I also have learned that no one can prove God to anyone else. God is a concept that can only be realized on a personal level. Therefore I don't try to convert anyone, but I relate my experiences to people who might be interested, and let them decide to continue looking in that direction if they so choose. We have free will, and that includes the free will to deny God's existence if we want. But that will only last on this life. Once you die, believe me, you'll be glad there is a God. An eternal nothingness? THAT would be hell.

[ExtraCheeZ]

bigphatty said:

Well good for you. I had to have help from Him because I had just dug the knife a little bit into my skin and was about to start hacking away.

My mum had untreatable cancer, diagnosed to die, she is alive now. One of my old freinds was diagnosed with luekimia, he was cured of that. My dog was diagnosed to be so medicaly scrued up that he would have to be put down, hes asleep right next to me now. Even my local priest was diagnosed with cancer, then after two weeks, it was gone... needless to say it completely baffled his doctors.

All of these defied the odds, none make me beleive in god. In fact they strengthin my "beleif" in biology.

Let me rephrase my interpritation of ignorance: They have not seen any evidence that there is a God. I used it out of context.

Ah ok. I am an ex-catholic. I know what its like to have faith, I know what gods love feels like and the feeling of knowing he watches over you. But I can explain that all scientificaly so it doesnt matter much now.

Hopefully you guys will see one day......

I can explain your experince with science. I'm sure a psychologist could to an even better job than me.

I have to stress: Just because you cant explain something, doesnt mean god did it.

Fear of the unknown = supersistion
Popular supersition = religion

[Muad'dib]

Comike, I don't really have anything to challegne that, but I know when ya make a post, and no one replies to it at all (which'll not happen to you, but nonetheless)

I'll just throw it out there that I can pretty much agree with the premise of what you are saying.

[ExtraCheeZ]

comike14 said:

I agree with the OP, to an extent. I will, however, say that my beliefs aren't based on faith, but on experience on multiple levels. All religions speak of the same God--there's no such thing as the CHRISTAIN God, or the ISLAMIC God. It's all just God--the Creator, the Great Spirit, Allah, The Source, Yawy, the Light, etc, etc, etc. Druidic practices, shaminstic practices, native practices, all call for one Creator of everything. Don't assume that religion must be false because they can't even agree on a creator. They all worship the same entity in different ways, much how you and I will always see the same event from two different angles.

Who created the "god".

I agree there must be a God. I began my path as a hard-core athiest. I spent a good 10 years of my life pouring through the logic of athiesism, and the illogical nature of religion. And indeed, religion IS illogical. But not God. God isn't man-made, but religion is. In my research, I began to see certain core similarities in every religion I studied. Then I looked at tribal and native cultures, and found that even they have those threads in common. I started seeing and experiencing things that I couldn't explain away as mere illusions. So eventually, I couldn't deny God's power and presence.

Because you couldnt explain something with logic, it must be spiritual. Let me note that human beings have been doing this ALL their existance. You try telling 200 bc jews that a rainbow was a reflection of light in water droplets and they would stone you for blasphemy.

An eternal nothingness? THAT would be hell.

Nothingness wouldnt be hell, try to remember before you were born, see how there is nothing there? Thats what it would be like to die and have no afterlife... just, nothing. Sounds like a good deal to me. (course, a heaven would be better, but who cares).

[bigphatty]

My mum had untreatable cancer, diagnosed to die, she is alive now. One of my old freinds was diagnosed with luekimia, he was cured of that. My dog was diagnosed to be so medicaly scrued up that he would have to be put down, hes asleep right next to me now. Even my local priest was diagnosed with cancer, then after two weeks, it was gone... needless to say it completely baffled his doctors.

All of these defied the odds, none make me beleive in god. In fact they strengthin my "beleif" in biology.

Well it's good your mom is okay and your priest etc. But when I had the knife at my wrists, I heard something in my head say: "No my child, it is not your time. Go and spread my will to others."

Or something to that extent I don't remember exactly because I passed out right afterwards.

Ah ok. I am an ex-catholic. I know what its like to have faith, I know what gods love feels like and the feeling of knowing he watches over you. But I can explain that all scientificaly so it doesnt matter much now.

You didn't experience "true" faith because you gave up on it.

EDIT: I suck at quoting here on PROTESF.....

[ExtraCheeZ]

Just a comment on this popular "God had to create the universe" theory. This is what it sounds like to me:

"Logic cant explain creation, so its only logical that something beyond all logic that was never created, created logic".

Let me put some logic into the creation of matter for you guys.

Blackholes destroy matter(or something like that), thus, when you use math to calculate how matter is destroyed, all you have to do is reverse that equation and you will figure out how matter is created (some scientist did this). Now if we applied the same theory to energy, we could find out how energy would be created from nothing by simply figuring out how to destroy it.

[Muad'dib]

Extra, thats a simply "easier said than done" or a "Work in Progress" i'd imagine.

[bigphatty]

extracheez said:

Just a comment on this popular "God had to create the universe" theory. This is what it sounds like to me:

"Logic cant explain creation, so its only logical that something beyond all logic that was never created, created logic".

Let me put some logic into the creation of matter for you guys.

Blackholes destroy matter(or something like that), thus, when you use math to calculate how matter is destroyed, all you have to do is reverse that equation and you will figure out how matter is created (some scientist did this). Now if we applied the same theory to energy, we could find out how energy would be created from nothing by simply figuring out how to destroy it.

You're just being stubborn. Saying there is no "higher power" at all is well, wrong. This all doesn't just happen for a reason.

And on black holes: what created it then?

[ExtraCheeZ]

bigphatty said:

Or something to that extent I don't remember exactly because I passed out right afterwards.

The human body has never halucenated. Ever.

Just a possibility, your brain could have been so intent on survival you created your own reason to live out of sub conciouse memory and expectation. In otherwords, you became insane to survive, insanity is usualy the brains responce and defence to extreme pain and pressure, most of the time it just manifests in a negative way. You got lucky.

...Just one of many explainations

You didn't experience "true" faith because you gave up on it.

You didnt experience true athiestism, because you gave up on it.

I didnt give up on my religion, infact, I only beleived in it because I was ignorent.

Studying science made me doubt religion. Studying religion made me hate religion.

[ExtraCheeZ]

newbiezilla said:

Extra, thats a simply "easier said than done" or a "Work in Progress" i'd imagine.

Yes, you are right on both. All science will always be easier said than done and a work in progress. Unlike religion there is never "this is right, because god says so" there is only "this is the truth based on observations, results and conclutions".

An easy way to say it.

Your walking down the road and a leaf blows past your feet, you look behind you and see a tree. You could say "god made that leaf apear right next to me, it had no relation to the tree" or you could put 2 and 2 together and say "The leaf ran out of circulation and fell off the tree, the wind pushed it past me".

Most things, no matter how complicated, can be summed up as simple as that.

[Anon]

I agree with ExtraCheeZ.

I started seeing and experiencing things that I couldn't explain away as mere illusions. So eventually, I couldn't deny God's power and presence.

You couldn't explain away as mere illusions? Here's the big reason why people fall back to religion time and time again, and why religion itself was created in the first place. People couldn't explain things, so they made things up. Did you know that in Scandinavian folklore they believed the aurora borealis was a swarm of flying herring, light reflecting of it's scales? They didn't know what it really was (imagine how cool it would be if they were right) so they made something up. Seemed reasonable to them - they didn't know what it really was. Similarly, nowadays, people see things they think are impossible, and fall back to religion. It's not the most logical explanation at all - as sure as herring can't fly, there's a reasonable scientific explanation for everything, one that isn't just "God did it".

Once you die, believe me, you'll be glad there is a God.

But I am a godless communist, he will surely smote me down and cast my into the fiery pits of hell? I kid, I kid, smoteth me not.

An eternal nothingness? THAT would be hell.

Trust me, you won't mind it when it happens to you.

[bigphatty]

Just a possibility, your brain could have been so intent on survival you created your own reason to live out of sub conciouse memory and expectation. In otherwords, you became insane to survive, insanity is usualy the brains responce and defence to extreme pain and pressure, most of the time it just manifests in a negative way. You got lucky.

...Just one of many explainations

Your explanation can hold no water. You weren't inside my brain at the time. I knew it was God calling me because when He said those words a burden was lifted. And I've nver been able to make up a voice in my head before.

You didnt experience true athiestism, because you gave up on it.

True athiesm is fact not "faith"

Studying science made me doubt religion. Studying religion made me hate religion.

How so?

[comike14]

extracheez said:

comike14 said:

I agree with the OP, to an extent. I will, however, say that my beliefs aren't based on faith, but on experience on multiple levels. All religions speak of the same God--there's no such thing as the CHRISTAIN God, or the ISLAMIC God. It's all just God--the Creator, the Great Spirit, Allah, The Source, Yawy, the Light, etc, etc, etc. Druidic practices, shaminstic practices, native practices, all call for one Creator of everything. Don't assume that religion must be false because they can't even agree on a creator. They all worship the same entity in different ways, much how you and I will always see the same event from two different angles.

Who created the "god".



Because you couldnt explain something with logic, it must be spiritual. Let me note that human beings have been doing this ALL their existance. You try telling 200 bc jews that a rainbow was a reflection of light in water droplets and they would stone you for blasphemy.

An eternal nothingness? THAT would be hell.

Nothingness wouldnt be hell, try to remember before you were born, see how there is nothing there? Thats what it would be like to die and have no afterlife... just, nothing. Sounds like a good deal to me. (course, a heaven would be better, but who cares).

Well, I was just sharing what I thought and why, not trying to get anyone else to change. Why debate me on my personal beliefs? Oh well, I'll take the bait.

Who created God? This is a good one, a question I've devoted many hours to. The answer is pretty simple--God just is. Just the same as athiests explain the universe from the beginning--it just came to be. If you ask me "Who created God" and expect either a definitive answer, or for me to see the error of my ways and convert, then why can't I expect the same from you of the question, "who created the universe?" Tell me the difference between the validity of both answers, assuming either has an answer.

The problem you're having with the idea of "who" and "before" is that you're stuck here in the physical way of thinking, in which the concept of time is valid. Before the universe, time didn't exist, so there was no "before," so to speak. There was a beginning, which isn't a marked point in time, but a commencement. I suppose you could consider anything else, or outside this physical universe to simply be eternity. It's easy to get wrapped up in that if it's all you've ever known, but I encourge you to look into the branch of quantum mechanics that begins to describe time as insubstantial, relative, and non-existent in any kind of meaningful way.

"Who created God" can't be a valid question for the reasons above. Nor can "Who created the universe."

On to your second point, just because I couldn't explain something with logic... Who says the spirit isn't logical? Who says current scientific thought can explain everything, and that if it can't explain it, it can't exist? My experiences are very logical, but I'm forced outside the realm of current scientific understanding while dealing with them. The spirit isn't some fantastical, out-of-nature, otherwise unexplainable and illogical phenomonon. It's just a part the natural universe, just as valid, logical, and accessible as me typing this to you right now. Science is always evolving, and to say that it doesn't exist because science doesn't say so is ignorant of the fact that science can't yet explain everything in the universe. Will it be able to? Again, I point you towards the physics branch of quantum mechanics, which is on the cutting edge of understanding, from a scientific point of view, the nature of reality, physical existence, and consciousness. You'll learn some things, scientifically quantifiable, that will make your head spin.

If you say that if it can't be proven by science, then its false, you're falling into the same trap of close-mindedness as religous zealots who claim that THEIR way is the RIGHT way. Isn't that the very thing you fight against? Isn't that why you became an athiest in the first place, because of the contradictions offered by religion? Am I saying anything here that could be construed as religious? Is anything I say following dogmatic circles? How is it any worse for 200 Jews to try me for blasphemy because I claim water droplets are caused by refraction than it is for you to condemn my spiritual experiences because you haven't seen them in a lab? Riddle me that.

And for your last point, about death being like birth. There's nothing I can say about that except that I hope you remember this conversation when you die. And remember, cogito ergo sum.

[Muad'dib]

extracheez said:

newbiezilla said:

Extra, thats a simply "easier said than done" or a "Work in Progress" i'd imagine.

Most things, no matter how complicated, can be summed up as simple as that.

Yep, everyone experiences things that operate on that principle, usually daily.

Want to know what really grinds my gears? These shows about "guardian angels" that well, a lot of people seem to like.

Coincidence becomes the sign of a guardian angel.

[ExtraCheeZ]

[quote author=bigphatty board=politics thread=1153228311 post=1153235250
You're just being stubborn. Saying there is no "higher power" at all is well, wrong. This all doesn't just happen for a reason.
[/quote]

I'm being as stubborn as you are.

Why is it wrong? A high power only needs to exist because it makes sence in your head. (and visa versa for me). We will find out when we die.

Oh and I dissagree, nothing has to have a reason, everything is a random series of events.

And on black holes: what created it then?

A black hole is a collection mass with an extremely high gravitational pull. That sucks everything into it and rips it apart, it is black because not even light energy can escape its pull.

(Btw, if thats wrong, I in no way have every studied physics or astromany so forgive me).

[ExtraCheeZ]

comike14 said:

extracheez said:

Who created the "god".



Because you couldnt explain something with logic, it must be spiritual. Let me note that human beings have been doing this ALL their existance. You try telling 200 bc jews that a rainbow was a reflection of light in water droplets and they would stone you for blasphemy.



Nothingness wouldnt be hell, try to remember before you were born, see how there is nothing there? Thats what it would be like to die and have no afterlife... just, nothing. Sounds like a good deal to me. (course, a heaven would be better, but who cares).

Well, I was just sharing what I thought and why, not trying to get anyone else to change. Why debate me on my personal beliefs? Oh well, I'll take the bait.

Who created God? This is a good one, a question I've devoted many hours to. The answer is pretty simple--God just is. Just the same as athiests explain the universe from the beginning--it just came to be. If you ask me "Who created God" and expect either a definitive answer, or for me to see the error of my ways and convert, then why can't I expect the same from you of the question, "who created the universe?" Tell me the difference between the validity of both answers, assuming either has an answer.

The problem you're having with the idea of "who" and "before" is that you're stuck here in the physical way of thinking, in which the concept of time is valid. Before the universe, time didn't exist, so there was no "before," so to speak. There was a beginning, which isn't a marked point in time, but a commencement. I suppose you could consider anything else, or outside this physical universe to simply be eternity. It's easy to get wrapped up in that if it's all you've ever known, but I encourge you to look into the branch of quantum mechanics that begins to describe time as insubstantial, relative, and non-existent in any kind of meaningful way.

"Who created God" can't be a valid question for the reasons above. Nor can "Who created the universe."

On to your second point, just because I couldn't explain something with logic... Who says the spirit isn't logical? Who says current scientific thought can explain everything, and that if it can't explain it, it can't exist? My experiences are very logical, but I'm forced outside the realm of current scientific understanding while dealing with them. The spirit isn't some fantastical, out-of-nature, otherwise unexplainable and illogical phenomonon. It's just a part the natural universe, just as valid, logical, and accessible as me typing this to you right now. Science is always evolving, and to say that it doesn't exist because science doesn't say so is ignorant of the fact that science can't yet explain everything in the universe. Will it be able to? Again, I point you towards the physics branch of quantum mechanics, which is on the cutting edge of understanding, from a scientific point of view, the nature of reality, physical existence, and consciousness. You'll learn some things, scientifically quantifiable, that will make your head spin.

If you say that if it can't be proven by science, then its false, you're falling into the same trap of close-mindedness as religous zealots who claim that THEIR way is the RIGHT way. Isn't that the very thing you fight against? Isn't that why you became an athiest in the first place, because of the contradictions offered by religion? Am I saying anything here that could be construed as religious? Is anything I say following dogmatic circles? How is it any worse for 200 Jews to try me for blasphemy because I claim water droplets are caused by refraction than it is for you to condemn my spiritual experiences because you haven't seen them in a lab? Riddle me that.

And for your last point, about death being like birth. There's nothing I can say about that except that I hope you remember this conversation when you die. And remember, cogito ergo sum.

My well thought out reply:

This is the debate forum. Thats all I want to say