Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Aug 5, 2006 18:42:21 GMT -5
I was having a not-too-pleasant chat on CN with a bunch of knuckle-dragging people, who, ironically, called me primitive, when their solution to an opposite ideology is:
So, is violence towards an opposing Political party and those who follow them okay to you? Why? How is violence ever Okay when directed towards innocents?
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Aug 5, 2006 19:03:38 GMT -5
I'm a pacificist, so the only time I resort to violence is if someone attacks me. I looked up about Antifa on wiki see what they said, and i'm reading through it now... But near the start, I agree with the following... Though I don't like violence being brought into it like them videos display. However, I know from some socialists I know that fascists do the same kind of stuff to socialists, too. If I can find a video to show that point in a while, i'll do so.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Aug 5, 2006 19:23:07 GMT -5
Please do so, this is not limited to just neanderthals beating on Fascists, this is about neanderthals beating on anyone of an opposing party. They exist everywhere, in all parties.
I thought the video was rather reminiscent of that video of two white officers beating on a black man, to be honest.
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pilaf
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Post by pilaf on Aug 5, 2006 19:44:19 GMT -5
If you destroy a nazi with violence, you're no better than the nazi. Defending yourself is one thing, but implying that you should roam around and actively attack people with radical ideologies is a form of fascism in and of itself.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Aug 5, 2006 20:11:25 GMT -5
Quoted. For. All. Holy. Truth.
I finally settled on a much tamer response, much like this after editing my post 50 times.
Jorgmungand also agrees, and Lynxie would agree with me that he's practically the most logical person ever.
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pilaf
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Post by pilaf on Aug 5, 2006 20:47:38 GMT -5
I used to have this venemous, violent hatred towards people who were different from me, until I read Animal Farm in high school. There was one part at the end that deeply moved me and started me down a different philisophical path. It was the very last line of the book, and I don't remember exactly how it went so I'll paraphrase:
"He looked from man to pig, and from pig to man, and could no longer tell the difference."
There was something profound about that simple little observation that really got some gears moving in my head that I didn't even knew existed.
edit: I feel that deserves some context. It's not an "animal rights" thing, which you may be assuming since I'm vegan and all that. It's a metaphor for human value systems. The animals overthrew the humans by violence and set up their own system on the farm, but in the end, some of the animals (the pigs) began to act exactly like the men the animals had despised previously. It's a subtle warning against "fighting fire with fire."
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Aug 5, 2006 21:00:42 GMT -5
That actually is very good quote... I think it deserves a place on my neopet's signature.
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Post by morty14 on Aug 5, 2006 21:27:35 GMT -5
Pilaf, as usual, is right on the mark. It is never ok to use violence against political enemies simply because they are political enemies. If they were really leftists they'd understand that.
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Post by Britney on Aug 5, 2006 22:50:32 GMT -5
Violence is only justified for self-defense. If you attack someone, you run the risk of miscaculating the strength of the opposition, and you run the risk of losing, and whether you win or lose you end up looking bad. If on the other hand you are attacked, you had better defend yourself with everything you've got so as to disuade others from attacking you again. Going on the defensive is always the better policy, because noone likes aggressors.
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Aug 6, 2006 10:03:02 GMT -5
*Agrees with Britney*
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Aug 6, 2006 17:31:26 GMT -5
Violence is only justified for self-defense. Agreed. Oh, so if you were 100% sure you'd be able to beat someone up, then yeah, sure go for it Yeah, the courts tend to frown on that type o' thing, don't they? Agreed on all that.
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Aug 6, 2006 17:46:51 GMT -5
Oh, so if you were 100% sure you'd be able to beat someone up, then yeah, sure go for it Ahh, but is there such a thing as 100%?
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Aug 6, 2006 18:22:02 GMT -5
Sometimes, most of the time, however, no.
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Aug 6, 2006 18:28:30 GMT -5
Oh, so if you were 100% sure you'd be able to beat someone up, then yeah, sure go for it Ahh, but is there such a thing as 100%? I'm not talking about this as how certain, the problem is that there seems to be a suggestion that if you'd win a fight against someone you'd go up and beat the hell out of them.... because you can. I hope i'm misinterpreting, but thats what i'm seeing from here. Explains the sick feeling in my stomach for sure.
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Post by Britney on Aug 6, 2006 18:55:19 GMT -5
Ahh, but is there such a thing as 100%? I'm not talking about this as how certain, the problem is that there seems to be a suggestion that if you'd win a fight against someone you'd go up and beat the hell out of them.... because you can. I hope i'm misinterpreting, but thats what i'm seeing from here. Explains the sick feeling in my stomach for sure. Ah but you overlook my first line... Violence is only justified for self defense. You have to take each line of what I said in order because they build off eachother. So if you are threatened, and you know you can beat the hell out of the person threatening you, then go and do it. They shouldn't be threatening you. They started it, and they deserve to pay. You're doing them a favor (they learn to think twice before acting), and yourself a favor (other's who bear witness will think twice before attacking you). What's wrong with that?
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Aug 6, 2006 18:59:37 GMT -5
Ah but you overlook my first line... Violence is only justified for self defense. You have to take each line of what I said in order because they build off eachother. So if you are threatened, and you know you can beat the hell out of the person threatening you, then go and do it. They shouldn't be threatening you. They started it, and they deserve to pay. You're doing them a favor (they learn to think twice before acting), and yourself a favor (other's who bear witness will think twice before attacking you). What's wrong with that? If someone is threatening me, i'll first of all tell them to f off. If they try to throw a punch at me, i'll deal with that accordingly. Sorry for misreading what you said there, but its not outside the realm of possibility for a person to say something is unjustified but do so anyway.
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Post by Britney on Aug 6, 2006 19:02:54 GMT -5
Ah but you overlook my first line... Violence is only justified for self defense. You have to take each line of what I said in order because they build off eachother. So if you are threatened, and you know you can beat the hell out of the person threatening you, then go and do it. They shouldn't be threatening you. They started it, and they deserve to pay. You're doing them a favor (they learn to think twice before acting), and yourself a favor (other's who bear witness will think twice before attacking you). What's wrong with that? If someone is threatening me, i'll first of all tell them to f off. If they try to throw a punch at me, i'll deal with that accordingly. Sorry for misreading what you said there, but its not outside the realm of possibility for a person to say something is unjustified but do so anyway. oh yea... see I have these things called standards, which we talked about in that other thread... I wouldn't do anything my standards told me was unjustified.
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Post by lucia on Aug 7, 2006 10:41:47 GMT -5
Time for some controversy! Of course it's okay to bring violence into the picture!
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Aug 7, 2006 12:20:24 GMT -5
No offence, DH, but you're obviously not a violent person.
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Post by comike14 on Aug 7, 2006 12:57:17 GMT -5
I'd argue violence against civilians is never OK. Soldiers, police officers, etc, all are signed up for the hazards of the job. But civilians never asked to be a part of anything like that. Sometimes there's collateral damage, and innocent people are killed. But every effort should be made at all times to prevent that from happening.
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Post by lulu on Aug 7, 2006 12:59:20 GMT -5
*agrees 100% with comike14*
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Post by lucia on Aug 7, 2006 17:29:01 GMT -5
No offence, DH, but you're obviously not a violent person. XD I've was a complete as a kid, but I've never been in an actual fight. So yeah, you're right. I try to be a psycopath, but it just never works out..
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Aug 7, 2006 21:46:53 GMT -5
One kid on CN has this in their sig:
"Taking out 'The' in 'Psychotherapist' since <insert year here>"
I've noticed that people there are disturbing, yet humorous...
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Post by powerslide on Aug 8, 2006 6:39:50 GMT -5
The day after my dick is cut off is the day I'd even consider violence against the populace, oppression by the government as acceptable.
"If you have nothing to offer the people, then you must have something to threaten them with"
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Aug 8, 2006 19:23:15 GMT -5
It's not just by government, it's by Street-level gangs, and criminals.
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