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Post by sirdabrowski on Jul 23, 2006 20:26:54 GMT -5
So complaints by the Danish are more valid than the ones of the Palestine? Sounds a bit racist to me. [/Cheap shot] I see your point though, but I still don't think Israel has been quite fair either. A lot of their policies are discriminatory to Arab-Israelis, and many politicians in Israel of Arab descent are openly called terrorists by some of the extremist parties. Suicide bombs are wrong, but so is much of what Israel has done. My point: Anyone would have complained, it wouldn't have helped if you put it in the Australian outback. Someone would have complained. Don't be a smartass and bring race in to it. You say extremist parties in Israel are calling Arab politicians in the Israeli government 'terrorists'? You don't say? Maybe that's because they're 'extremists'. Kind of like those Far-Right lunatics and Far-Left lunatics in the United States. Unfortunately for you, the majority of the Israeli people and the Israeli Government don't think all Arabs are terrorists.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 23, 2006 20:27:29 GMT -5
After being bombed for what, 2 years, into submission, I doubt they'd bother a Western-Backed state in Germany.
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Post by lucia on Jul 23, 2006 20:34:30 GMT -5
So complaints by the Danish are more valid than the ones of the Palestine? Sounds a bit racist to me. [/Cheap shot] I see your point though, but I still don't think Israel has been quite fair either. A lot of their policies are discriminatory to Arab-Israelis, and many politicians in Israel of Arab descent are openly called terrorists by some of the extremist parties. Suicide bombs are wrong, but so is much of what Israel has done. My point: Anyone would have complained, it wouldn't have helped if you put it in the Australian outback. Someone would have complained. Don't be a smartass and bring race in to it. Gotcha. My bad. Do you support the bombing of power stations and bridges in Gaza, though? That seems a bit extreme, going after domestic targets even though militants were the only group involved. And yes, I think there is some racism in Israel against Arabs, and unfairly so. EDIT: If not racism, then hatred might be a better word.
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Post by thaddius on Jul 24, 2006 23:27:05 GMT -5
Kindly sir, you are in no position to say that. I am not aware of where you live but I will imagine that it is somewhere in the 'western' world. You enjoy the luxury of having a protected house, safe water, abundant food and above all a high level of safety. As is the case in much of the 'western' world your family probably does not hold strong roots to one particular area or plot of land. Saying that people should be expected to leave the very land that their families has been occupying for generations, perhaps hundred years just because two Israeli soldiers were captured is beyond outrageous. The way that Israel prances about in sovereign territory is culpable for much of the turmoil and unrest in the middle east. They do not have the right to start an international conflict with a nation when a terrorist group was responsible for abducting TWO soldiers (in spite of the fact that thousands of Lebanese people lay in Israeli prisons, captured on their own soil). If my name were ratwar i would give you a cookie, but I'm not. I will leave it at good day. My grandparents were Polish refugees from WWII. I've grown up knowing what it's like to have a tie/bond for a certain country/plot of land/ideal. The Israeli Defense Force is not telling Lebanese people to, "Get the Hell out of Dodge and stay out. This territory is now ours." They're telling them to get out for now, until the fighting has cooled down. It's obviously dangerous to stick around when Israel and Hezbollah are shooting at each other. So it's best to run and come back another day. Again: The Israeli attack on Hezbollah is because of a culmination of factors. Hezbollah broke it's agreement to cease it's rocket attacks on Israel. Hezbollah also broke the agreement again when they took two Israeli soldiers captive. Israel has the right to defend it's citizens. The Israeli Prime Minister has stated that the Israeli ground forces will only stay in Lebanon until the Lebanese Army or a Multinational force comes to garrison the area. To say this is purely Israel's fault is outrageous in of itself. Israel did not ask Hezbollah to launch rockets in to Israel and blow up it's own people. And there are thousands of Lebanese citizens in Israeli jails? I'll assume you mean Palestinian? If not, where did you learn this information? That information came from the Lebanese Ambassador to the United States. To address what you had said above, what would the civilians come back to? Destroyed houses or Israeli occupation at best. How is it acceptable for Israel to destroy 80% of the major roads and 95% of the major bridges? By crushing the infrastructure, the Israelis are in effect destroying a fledgling democracy by setting back the stability of a country to something similar to Afghanistan after the soviets withdrew in the 80's. Time and time again history has proven that creating instability creates conflict.
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 25, 2006 14:59:54 GMT -5
My friend sent me this in a PM...
I don't really know very much on the issue, but is there truth there?
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Post by lucia on Jul 25, 2006 18:59:06 GMT -5
Some, yes. But complaining the United States cut off funding that they were under no circumstance obligated to give legally kind of makes it a moot point. And Israel has made prisoner exchanges in the past, but that's done little to curb the suicide bombings, so the government has abandoned the practice.
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 25, 2006 19:31:08 GMT -5
Thanks, Dark Helmet, i'm pretty clueless to the whole affair, to be honest, and not saying I doubt the guy whos telling me this stuff, more of a i'd like to hear more than one opinion on the matter.
I'd be interested to hear what others have to say in response, too.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 25, 2006 19:31:31 GMT -5
On a side note, I do believe the Israelis inprisoned quite a few Jewish refugees fleeing... Iran... or one of those places.
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Post by lucia on Jul 25, 2006 19:34:56 GMT -5
Personally, I think both sides here are guilty of numerous atrocities. Nobody's really on the good side or bad side.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 25, 2006 19:38:23 GMT -5
Kind of like the Axis and Allies in the '40s.
The Axis commited numerous atrocities, and the Allies did too.
Axis: Auschwitz, Nuremburg, Kristallnacht, Night of Long Knives, Destroying German, etc.
Allies: Bombing Dresden, N00kiler b0mbs, und Firebombing Japan. In total, firebombing Dresden, I do believe, killed more than the N00kiler weapons did.
Both sides are t3h suxx0rz.
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Post by lucia on Jul 25, 2006 19:45:40 GMT -5
I think you're omitting the V2 rockets, and a lot of the Japanese war crimes, but true, true. Axis was worse though!
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Post by Osama Bin Laden on Jul 25, 2006 21:18:57 GMT -5
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Jul 25, 2006 21:44:24 GMT -5
Kind of like the Axis and Allies in the '40s. The Axis commited numerous atrocities, and the Allies did too. Axis: Auschwitz, Nuremburg, Kristallnacht, Night of Long Knives, Destroying German, etc. Allies: Bombing Dresden, N00kiler b0mbs, und Firebombing Japan. In total, firebombing Dresden, I do believe, killed more than the N00kiler weapons did. Both sides are t3h suxx0rz. Goldie, to be fair, the Axis powers committed far more atrocities. London was bombed quite heavily, and I'm sure that the multitude of raids on London killed more people than fire bombing Dresden. (And if it is any comfort to the Americans in the audience, most US bombing raids had military targets. That's why the were carried out in the daytime.) Also in you listing of Axis war atrocitys, you forgot the U-boat attacks on passanger ships and the fact that the Japanese were testing biological weapons on entire citys of Chinese. Oh, and the POW camps on the allied side were much better than the ones on the axis side. Thurthermore, the Axis powers were activily developing a Nuclear Weapon. Now this doesn't make what the Allies did right (especially the Russians), but in total war, atrocitys are going to happen. Oh, and DH, if you're going to mention the V2, at least mention the V1 as well!
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 25, 2006 22:15:02 GMT -5
Guys, calm, calm. I'm perfectly aware the Axis commited horrible, horrible, atrocities. But the Allies weren't sunshine and angels either.
Note the 'etc' in there.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 25, 2006 22:17:19 GMT -5
Also, would the U-boats not count as conventional weaponry? If someone was aiding your enemy, are you not going to try and neutralize their aid? Or are you going to let more and more shipments stockpile in your enemy's territory, to be used against your people?
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Jul 25, 2006 22:19:51 GMT -5
Also, would the U-boats not count as conventional weaponry? If someone was aiding your enemy, are you not going to try and neutralize their aid? Or are you going to let more and more shipments stockpile in your enemy's territory, to be used against your people? I said their attacks on Passanger Ships, not troop transports or cargo ships.
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Post by lucia on Jul 26, 2006 0:03:35 GMT -5
Well, several unarmed United Nations officials have been killed by both sides. Israel's losing the opinion battle badly though, because they're targeting civilians trying to flee. That's wrong, and it's sad. And they're getting hammered for it.
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Post by Osama Bin Laden on Jul 26, 2006 2:32:02 GMT -5
They might have to be "put down" if you know what I mean.
Its almost like Israel wants to start a big multinational war.
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Post by lucia on Jul 26, 2006 13:03:04 GMT -5
Everyone says they want peacekeepers, but nobody wants to go. So it'll probably be at least six months to a year before the United Nations puts something together.
In the meantime, more of this bullshit's gonna happen.
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Jul 26, 2006 14:25:46 GMT -5
Everyone says they want peacekeepers, but nobody wants to go. So it'll probably be at least six months to a year before the United Nations puts something together. In the meantime, more of this bullshit's gonna happen. Actually, they already have peacekeepers along the border. They just don't have enough. If the situation gets much worse, I believe the UN will act.
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 26, 2006 18:43:20 GMT -5
Also, would the U-boats not count as conventional weaponry? If someone was aiding your enemy, are you not going to try and neutralize their aid? Or are you going to let more and more shipments stockpile in your enemy's territory, to be used against your people? I said their attacks on Passanger Ships, not troop transports or cargo ships. Ah, well, if you consider that the lightest guns on the military transports and cargo-ships could fatally compromise the hull, there's no real way they could surface to identify them without more fatalities.
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Jul 26, 2006 20:06:37 GMT -5
I said their attacks on Passanger Ships, not troop transports or cargo ships. Ah, well, if you consider that the lightest guns on the military transports and cargo-ships could fatally compromise the hull, there's no real way they could surface to identify them without more fatalities. Using that logic, you could say that all the night bombings on citys were justified, since daylight attacks (where they could see the factorys they were supposed to attack) were too dangerous for the bombers
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Gold_skywalker
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 26, 2006 21:02:43 GMT -5
True. But this logic couldn't be used to justify targeting Dresden, since they knew it was a civillian target.
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