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Post by Hunessai on Jan 20, 2006 20:08:01 GMT -5
Ripped from the official forums. Does free will exist or not? Here's something to get the ball rolling.. Hunessai: I agree. You are born with a brain genetically pre-disposed to react and handle events differently than other people. Such a difference can vary between better math skills to aggression levels. These factors then further mold who you are as events are brought into the equation. GalaxyDuster: They only mold your actions, they cannot choose specific actions. Take my example from earlier. You can choose to, or to not, flip someone off for a traffic cut-off. There's nothing in the world that decides that moment for you. You can be predisposed to anger and still not flip the person off by choice. Or you can. Or you can be predisposed to peacefulness and simply pull over. Or you could flip them off anyway. Its all choice. Hunessai: Choice is an illusion. It is merely your brain processing all of the factors mentioned earlier, and then doing the output. Because you weren't as predisposed to anger, you wouldn't flip them off. Or perhaps you were very well pre-disposed to anger, but have had a bad experience with someone shooting at you last time you flicked someone off. Hunessai: From stories and other reactions between people, you know that flipping some one off might cause trouble. The chance of this trouble and the intensity of this trouble (also known as the risk) outweighed the need to communicate your dissatisfaction to the person. What you call choice is the processing of these variables and risk. If the same event were to occur to the same person an infinite number of times, without any change in the environment or their memory, their reaction would be the same. To claim otherwise would to be to claim that their reactions had a bit of random tendencies in them, which is also an illusion. Think of something right now. It can be anything. Now, can you trace to how you thought of this something through events that currently happened in your life or you have recently reflected on? If you can not, it may merely be from a subconscious perception that you didn't take the time to fully process.
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Post by morty14 on Jan 20, 2006 20:14:40 GMT -5
I think there is free will, because thinking for people can change in a life time. Predispositions can be thrown out and replaced. An example I know well is myself. Up until 7th grade I almost never would go and talk to people I didn't know, I was very shy. But in 7th grade I sort of "came out of my shell" and started talking to people and making friends. I'm sure your theory has an explanation for this, and I'd like to see it as your theory is very interesting.
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Post by Hunessai on Jan 20, 2006 20:21:11 GMT -5
A prime example is puberty. Do you have the choice to not be attracted to people?
An explanation for your particular change can be accoutned for in a multitude of ways. Perhaps you noticed that people with a lot of friends seem to be happier, or puberty sparked an interest in others in your brain, or your parents told you something off-hand that had a large impact on you. The amount of variables are almost countless, but you would have became less shy in every instance of an infinity of instances if the variables stayed the same.
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Post by eek on Jan 20, 2006 20:21:21 GMT -5
I think that just because you can predict how someone will react, doesn't mean they aren't free-willed. They still make that choice, and will do if you subject them to that exact set of circumstances over and over again.
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Post by Hunessai on Jan 20, 2006 20:27:49 GMT -5
What is your definition of free will, then?
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jan 20, 2006 20:30:11 GMT -5
Morty, That is just sociobiology, your brain makes you want friends as friends benifit your survival. Think about it, why do you realy want to talk to someone, because it makes you feel good. So basicaly your brain is making you do that but hanging a treat infront of your face. It sounds pretty depressing but I say enjoy it while you can
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Post by illicit on Jan 20, 2006 20:32:54 GMT -5
I think that God has a plan for you, but you still have the choice of doing specific things, but the direction of your life will go a certain way, it is your job to react.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jan 20, 2006 20:34:31 GMT -5
I think that just because you can predict how someone will react, doesn't mean they aren't free-willed. They still make that choice, and will do if you subject them to that exact set of circumstances over and over again. But see, your brain controls everything. Without the chemical reactions and ion transfers in your brain, you would have nothing, not even total blackness, you would just not exist. So basicaly even your conciouse choice is coming from electricity in your brain.
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Post by eek on Jan 20, 2006 20:35:35 GMT -5
What is your definition of free will, then? To me, free will is the ability to choose from a set of options, without any intervention from any kind of higher power. Perhaps I've got the wrong end of the stick here, but just because you can predict with 100% accuracy what I'll do when faced with a choice, doesn't mean I am not free to make that choice of my own will.
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Post by eek on Jan 20, 2006 20:40:02 GMT -5
I think that just because you can predict how someone will react, doesn't mean they aren't free-willed. They still make that choice, and will do if you subject them to that exact set of circumstances over and over again. But see, your brain controls everything. Without the chemical reactions and ion transfers in your brain, you would have nothing, not even total blackness, you would just not exist. So basicaly even your conciouse choice is coming from electricity in your brain. Aren't "choice" and "will" just names we give to these chemical reactions and electrical signals?
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Post by Hunessai on Jan 20, 2006 20:40:27 GMT -5
Your brain is constantly choosing from a set of options, and this can be represented with simple logical equations on the most basic level.
Bannanas are good. Cookies are better than bananas.
1 banana + 1 cookie > 1 cookie.
Your will is simply that logical process, although it gets exceedingly complex as more things are added.
If you make the same choice in every instance, free will might as well not exist. It is useless, as it doesn't change anything your experiences and dispositions determine.
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Post by illicit on Jan 20, 2006 20:42:11 GMT -5
Your brain is constantly choosing from a set of options, and this can be represented with simple logical equations on the most basic level. Bannanas are good. Cookies are better than bananas. 1 banana + 1 cookie > 1 cookie. Your will is simply that logical process, although it gets exceedingly complex as more things are added. If you make the same choice in every instance, free will might as well not exist. It is useless, as it doesn't change anything your experiences and dispositions determine. Ok, put me in a room with a banana and a cookie, then tell me to pick one up, imma pick up the cookie once, and then the banana the second time, see free will? Its because your minds curious about what the outcome would have been should you have chosen the other one.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jan 20, 2006 20:50:29 GMT -5
Your brain is constantly choosing from a set of options, and this can be represented with simple logical equations on the most basic level. Bannanas are good. Cookies are better than bananas. 1 banana + 1 cookie > 1 cookie. Your will is simply that logical process, although it gets exceedingly complex as more things are added. If you make the same choice in every instance, free will might as well not exist. It is useless, as it doesn't change anything your experiences and dispositions determine. You should look on the lower level of that to show that we dont have free will. Its not the fact your brain uses probablity based on expreience and what not. Its the face your brain creates these impulses, without your brain we wouldnt even be thinking this. Thus our brain is incontrol of us because all our thoughts and feelings are just chemicals transfering electrons. Free will would be us controling those electron transfers, which I'm pretty sure is impossible with our current brain.
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Post by eek on Jan 20, 2006 20:51:03 GMT -5
Your brain is constantly choosing from a set of options, and this can be represented with simple logical equations on the most basic level. Bannanas are good. Cookies are better than bananas. 1 banana + 1 cookie > 1 cookie. Your will is simply that logical process, although it gets exceedingly complex as more things are added. If you make the same choice in every instance, free will might as well not exist. It is useless, as it doesn't change anything your experiences and dispositions determine. I don't think using logic removes the "free" part.
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Post by illicit on Jan 20, 2006 20:53:04 GMT -5
Your brain is constantly choosing from a set of options, and this can be represented with simple logical equations on the most basic level. Bannanas are good. Cookies are better than bananas. 1 banana + 1 cookie > 1 cookie. Your will is simply that logical process, although it gets exceedingly complex as more things are added. If you make the same choice in every instance, free will might as well not exist. It is useless, as it doesn't change anything your experiences and dispositions determine. I don't think using logic removes the "free" part. Actually it kind of does, because in theory everytime you do something you pick the logical answer. If you have to decide between living and dying each time you will pick living depending on the person.
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Post by eek on Jan 20, 2006 20:54:52 GMT -5
I don't think using logic removes the "free" part. Actually it kind of does, because in theory everytime you do something you pick the logical answer. If you have to decide between living and dying each time you will pick living depending on the person. Exactly. "You choose". That is free will... isn't it? Who cares what each of us sees as the most beneficial option for whatever reason, we still choose it because that's what we want to do.
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Post by Hunessai on Jan 20, 2006 20:55:43 GMT -5
I think people are failing to realise that "we" are our brains. If you deny this idea, then you might possibly have a logical argument in free will. If you believe you are your brain, free will is an illusion, as you merely think that you are in control of your reactions but the greater part of your brain actually is. It can become a confusing mess. Exactly. "You choose". That is free will... isn't it? Who cares what each of us sees as the most beneficial option for whatever reason, we still choose it because that's what we want to do. Your want was created by your brain based on those factors.
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Post by eek on Jan 20, 2006 20:57:40 GMT -5
So... if we are our brains, and our brains control our actions... it still makes sense.
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Post by illicit on Jan 20, 2006 21:00:49 GMT -5
So... if we are our brains, and our brains control our actions... it still makes sense. No what he is saying your "choice" is based apon chemical reactions in your brain, so it would be the same each time.
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Post by eek on Jan 20, 2006 21:03:55 GMT -5
So... if we are our brains, and our brains control our actions... it still makes sense. No what he is saying your "choice" is based apon chemical reactions in your brain, so it would be the same each time. Of course the decision would be the same each time. That doesn't change the fact that you make that choice of your own will.
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Post by illicit on Jan 20, 2006 21:05:09 GMT -5
No what he is saying your "choice" is based apon chemical reactions in your brain, so it would be the same each time. Of course the decision would be the same each time. That doesn't change the fact that you make that choice of your own will. Yea it does because this choice is made because of chemicals, you dont actually chose, your brain analyzes the situation like a math problem and solves it.
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Post by eek on Jan 20, 2006 21:06:47 GMT -5
Of course the decision would be the same each time. That doesn't change the fact that you make that choice of your own will. Yea it does because this choice is made because of chemicals, you dont actually chose, your brain analyzes the situation like a math problem and solves it. That process is what we label as "choice".
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Post by Hunessai on Jan 20, 2006 21:07:04 GMT -5
I think this concept is heavily connected with that of the existance of a soul.
A soul is based on "free" will, and can not exist without it. Thus, those who hold to the idea of a soul are incapable of seeing the argument that "free" will doesn't exist.
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Post by morty14 on Jan 20, 2006 21:44:30 GMT -5
Morty, That is just sociobiology, your brain makes you want friends as friends benifit your survival. Think about it, why do you realy want to talk to someone, because it makes you feel good. So basicaly your brain is making you do that but hanging a treat infront of your face. It sounds pretty depressing but I say enjoy it while you can Sorry, I don't know anything about the topic really, I just wanted to see how the theory worked in my example.
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mastab
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Free hugs!
Posts: 2,781
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Post by mastab on Jan 21, 2006 2:20:02 GMT -5
That depends on your definition of free will. Humans do not make decisions, connections between brain cells do. Further, we are forced to follow laws and rules that constrict on our free will.
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