Questioning your leadership

[redyellow]

I am not an American, but this is something I have noticed. Whenever someone questions the American government in any way, American citizens often label them as unpatriotic. Why is it that people, that are essentially the watch dogs of democracy silenced when they mention the down falls of their government; trying to improve the nation. In America, public conferences with the president often involve conservatives commending Bush for his efforts on the war on terrorism. Occasionally a person that has left wing political views questions the truth about Iraq and many of the other things that go on in his leadership. These people are often booed and are forced to leave the building from fear; generally named as unpatriotic, a communist or even a terrorist.

This contrasts to the British and Australian public conferences, which never has anyone giving the same compliments that George Bush receives. Rather, these events are comprised of four hours of questions about the war on Iraq, statements about the fallacy of the premise that was involved in that same war. Commonly questions about propaganda, economical concerns and other heated issues appear in these conferences.

So why is it unpatriotic for an American to question the government, while many other nations don't have that same problem?

[ExtraCheeZ]

We are so americanised in the food we eat and movies we watch we forget that america has a different culture. Its just the way they are brought up, mainly that america is great and always right, they barely even learn a thing about other countries in school. Now a days though (witht he introduction of george bush into the history books) it seems like this is becoming more patriotic to hate the government .

Just to clarify what I said about the way americans are brought up. From most that I have talked to, its not common knowledge that there are other capitalist democracys out there in the world. America is shown so often as the powerfull nation saving the little guys, or in movies wear other cultures are portayed as weird and some what... stupid in comparison. I hate to over generalise but I'm just trying to explain what I mean.

[pilaf]

I am an American, and I say f*ck authority.

I'm loyal to Democracy. I'm loyal to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and as a Green, to the ten key values of the Greens. Not to any one President..certainly not to Bush and his fascist regime. Not to big business, central government and the rape of the lower income people. Not to mindless wars, not to drilling for oil in Alaska, not to ignoring global warming, not for hating people from other countries because they're not Americans. Not to denying gays basic human rights. Not to racism and segregation which some people think has gone away just because it's illegal. Not to putting religion in schools and calling it "Intelligent Design." Not to denying women who were raped the right to an abortion. Not to taking away health care from old people who need it.

I'm loyal to truth and justice, not to the government. It's the duty of every American citizen and every free person on the Earth to question the government when it deserves to be questioned, and sometimes to rise up against it when it becomes oppressive, either through nonviolent protest or when there's no other optioned, armed insurrection. (Though I hardly condone the latter, it's how the country was formed in the first place.)

[Muad'dib]

I'm not from America, and, heh, here it seems everyone questions the leadership, or jut about any politician that gets into power.

Our people trust no body.

[ExtraCheeZ]

newbiezilla said:

I'm not from America, and, heh, here it seems everyone questions the leadership, or jut about any politician that gets into power.

Our people trust no body.

High five!!

[lucia]

I think that's a stereotype that unfortunately everyone believes. Most people in the United States don't do that sort of thing, except for a small group of fanatics, I'd think.

[Muad'dib]

Dark Helmet, yeah its a minority. but take a look at an example in a forum that goldskywalker linked to.

Of course, he was finding something else amusing, but I did find

Guy:Oh stop crying. Just because you're jealous of those who live in the US and have the highest quality of life in the world,
Sweden, Finland and Luxembourg have the highest "quality of life" in the world not the US. Hell even Ireland has a better living standard then the US.


And why do you need a military in such a time of deplomacy? Wow congrads you have such a powerful military that they are getting their asses kicked in baghdad by Suicide bombers and untrained snipers :roll:
Reply:Don't bullcrap me, Arbiter. You and I both know that for every US servicemen killed in Iraq, 10 of the terrorist scum die. It almost sounds to me like YOU are terrorist scum. You seem happy to back them.

I hereby deem you a Terrorist and enemy of the United States of America, and therefore, the free world.

Of course, that guy wasn't an American, so the "unpatriotic" thing can't apply, but terrorist? Man, good thing people like him are on the fringe group (or at least i'd sure hope so)

[lucia]

Yeah, there's a kid my friend knows like that. "The US is the best country in the world!"

"Uh, why?"

"Free SPEECH man!"

But most people aren't like that. And there's idiots everywhere.

[pilaf]

There's a difference between patriotism and nationalism.

I'm a far-left liberal. I am patriotic because I am loyal to the ideals of what democracy is supposed to be about in my country.

In contrast, the far-right neo cons are nationalists. They fanatically follow the U.S. Government, like some sort of cult, and are loyal to the Republic, even if the constitution and bill of rights is blatantly violated.

That is not patriotism. That is stupidity and apathty.

[Gold_skywalker]

lucia said:

I think that's a stereotype that unfortunately everyone believes. Most people in the United States don't do that sort of thing, except for a small group of fanatics, I'd think.

Indeed, everyone here knows I'm a German-fanboi, really. Xenophobia doesn't really fit into my schedule as a Right-winger.

[Gold_skywalker]

newbiezilla said:

Dark Helmet, yeah its a minority. but take a look at an example in a forum that goldskywalker linked to.

Of course, he was finding something else amusing, but I did find

Guy:Oh stop crying. Just because you're jealous of those who live in the US and have the highest quality of life in the world,
Sweden, Finland and Luxembourg have the highest "quality of life" in the world not the US. Hell even Ireland has a better living standard then the US.


And why do you need a military in such a time of deplomacy? Wow congrads you have such a powerful military that they are getting their asses kicked in baghdad by Suicide bombers and untrained snipers :roll:
Reply:Don't bullcrap me, Arbiter. You and I both know that for every US servicemen killed in Iraq, 10 of the terrorist scum die. It almost sounds to me like YOU are terrorist scum. You seem happy to back them.

I hereby deem you a Terrorist and enemy of the United States of America, and therefore, the free world.

Of course, that guy wasn't an American, so the "unpatriotic" thing can't apply, but terrorist? Man, good thing people like him are on the fringe group (or at least i'd sure hope so)

. Guys, I suggest, as a salute to our Comrade in Jail, that we send him a Monopoly Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card.

[Muad'dib]

..... I suggest the troll gets banned, but thats just me.

[mastab]

I would question my leader, but, you know, we are the dead.

[Gold_skywalker]

newbiezilla said:

..... I suggest the troll gets banned, but thats just me.

What? I just suggested we send our Comrade a Get Out of jail Free Card!

We'll have to smuggle it. God knows what will happen if they catch us with one of those!

[melchior1]

Ever seen Team America?
yeah we know what goes on and we laugh at it just like everything else
Terrorists? haha
Nuclear Weapons? haha
Deranged Koreans with Nukes? hahahahahaha

[Muad'dib]

I'd advise not watching that movie when hungover. Do so at your own peril.

[redyellow]

melchior1 said:

Ever seen Team America?
yeah we know what goes on and we laugh at it just like everything else
Terrorists? haha
Nuclear Weapons? haha
Deranged Koreans with Nukes? hahahahahaha

I posted that when I was asleep, but I am back now. Anyway, it seems that comedy central, is the only television station that I know in America (I don't have access to American cable, just a couple of their shows), that actually criticises the government. As far as I know, Team America world police is strongly related to South Park , which airs on comedy central.

pilaf said:

There's a difference between patriotism and nationalism.

I'm a far-left liberal. I am patriotic because I am loyal to the ideals of what democracy is supposed to be about in my country.

In contrast, the far-right neo cons are nationalists. They fanatically follow the U.S. Government, like some sort of cult, and are loyal to the Republic, even if the constitution and bill of rights is blatantly violated.

That is not patriotism. That is stupidity and apathty.

That is where I am coming from.

In most nations you have people that are loyal to the nation, but in America you have right wing conservatives which are loyal to the government and the nation. It is considered unpatriotic for many to question either of these facets.

[lucia]

Where are you from, anyway? True there's some people who do stuff like that, but the U.S. is nothing like China. For the most part, people get along just fine. The international press likes to capitalize on a few idiots who make some pretty uninformed comments, but overall most people are decent folks, just like anywhere in the world. And plenty of stations criticize the government.

[Gold_skywalker]

*Fascists.

Or did you mean Facets? or Faucets? or Facists? Or Fascists? WHAT. DO. YOU. WANT. FROM. MEEEEEEEE!

[lucia]

Yep, he meant "facets".

[thaddius]

It's unpatriotic because we say so!

In reality I think that this can be traced back to world war one. Due to the lack of support for the war, the government created the espionage act of 1917 which made it illegal to engage in any activity that would undermine the success of the united states armed forces. Many people were found in violation of this, but the supreme court said that speech against the government in a time of war was not protected under the 1st amendment in the case Schenck v. United States. Adding to that were the palmer raids which rounded up around 10000 communists and socialists. The raids were seen by the general public as a good thing because socialists were viewed as a threat to the American life.

"The public reaction to these raids was favorable, stirring up a storm of anti-communist sentiment. A group of young men in Centralia, Washington, lynched a radical from a railway bridge. The coroner's report stated that the communist "jumped off with a rope around his neck and then shot himself full of holes.""

Furthering the notion that it is wrong to question authority were the comitie on unamerican activities and the loyalty review board. McCarthyism pretty much came out of that and the scare of communism from the cold war.

More recently the sentiment that it is wrong to question has been slowly dying. 9/11 brought some of that back with things such as the patriot act, but bush, being the wonderful leader that he is [/sarcasm], has helped some of that die back off.