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Post by Osama Bin Laden on Jul 13, 2006 22:54:16 GMT -5
The reason we attribute Creation to something/someone is because of consciousness. Can something exist from nothing? Of course not. But can Consciousness exist from nothing? Well now... hmmm. It is a thing? Er... Your stage. I dont think anyone should base an argument about God existing on consciousness. My beleif is that consciousness is learned, from life experiences. Humans have to be able to think, we learn that from a young age. If we didnt think, we would die. On to the topic. I beleive God is a being for people to look up to, a spiritual guide, the big guy in the sky, someone/thing for people to base their lives around, the thing that gives life meaning to some people.
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Post by tartilus on Jul 14, 2006 0:26:34 GMT -5
Obviously, but why use God? It seems very simplistic to simply say that someone had to drum us up. If I think about it from a Christian/Theist standpoint, I can see why they think that. I see it from a neutral standpoint and I understand both... But I just don't believe. I talk in hypotheticals here, not proof. Actually, I tend to disagree. It is relatively easy to know that there is nothing, but far more difficult to say there has always been something there. People can't comprehend it, and have to ask questions like, 'what was here before?' If something is always there, it is infinite. Humans can't really understand infinity. I can't explain it properly because I'm a wee bit tired. Well it could be, and we can create things ourselves. If I dream I create a world in my mind where people have motives, they speak, think and feel. Hence why I always say that we could easily be just a dream. If we were just a dream/thought then that person would be God. However, it seems far fetched to me, but please continue. I debate better when not tired. Many different religions AND spiritual beliefs claim that we are all indeed part of God. Christianity likes to deny it, but Jesus did say, "Does your scripture not say that you are all Gods?" We can create, and we do create. We make thoughts into reality all the time with our actions--that's creation. But we also create in a more spiritual sense. Something I can't get into because it's the result of years of meditations, cross-cultural research, and spiritual activities. But we can, and we do it all the time. The reason we attribute Creation to something/someone is because of consciousness. Can something exist from nothing? Of course not. But can Consciousness exist from nothing? Well now... hmmm. It is a thing? Er... Your stage. It's a thought Mike - it's a belief, and it is feasible, yes. Though hardly provable. Luckily it bypasses much of the typical religious morals, which instantly makes me have a higher respect for you. As to your actual question: Can consciousness exist from something? This is obviously a deep chasm between our views of the world. You think that there is a spiritual aspect to consciousness - and thus you say "yes." I, on the other hand, believe in almost entirely secular reasoning, and say "no." I understand entirely where your theory comes from. Actually, in a strangely disconcerting manner, as I sit here I can fill out most of the gaps in the thing. I know how I would explain heaven, and god, and, your idea of a spiritual consciousness. Still, I cannot bring myself past the illogical nature of a supernatural consciousness, and thus I'm stuck with my atheism. However, if there where a god, I would almost expect it to be extra-terrestrial in nature. I remember my father and I discussing some of my sci-fi book themes, and me bringing up one of my plots consisting of a galaxy which, in a pulsating big-bang universe, was on the very edge of the expanding material, allowing it to escape the eventual collapse and last for an unimaginable amount of time; it’s inhabitants evolving physically and technologically till nothing was beyond their grasp. And, from a planet far removed from the universe, they control and manipulate the seeds of intelligent life through the universe. Of course, this also does not allow for much of a spiritual context, so I suppose it’s still lacking.
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Post by comike14 on Jul 14, 2006 8:57:14 GMT -5
No worries There is some great stuff in it... Things about water... You'll see I've 20 min left on the video, but I made it through the water bit. I actually saw that study independently of the film. It is an incredible notion that science is starting to realize the effect of consciousness on physical matter. I knew quantum mechanics was ahead of all the other physics fields, but I never knew it was that far up! Again, excellent video. I sent it to a lot of people.
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Post by Slipper Eater on Jul 14, 2006 9:03:20 GMT -5
Well, since consciousness is the state of awareness and sentience. You forget it's just a word to describe our awareness and experience of things. So no, I don't believe it can just pop into existence.
Too lazy to go into just why, and what the bleed do we know is a good film, I have it on my HD somewhere.
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Post by comike14 on Jul 14, 2006 9:10:00 GMT -5
Many different religions AND spiritual beliefs claim that we are all indeed part of God. Christianity likes to deny it, but Jesus did say, "Does your scripture not say that you are all Gods?" We can create, and we do create. We make thoughts into reality all the time with our actions--that's creation. But we also create in a more spiritual sense. Something I can't get into because it's the result of years of meditations, cross-cultural research, and spiritual activities. But we can, and we do it all the time. The reason we attribute Creation to something/someone is because of consciousness. Can something exist from nothing? Of course not. But can Consciousness exist from nothing? Well now... hmmm. It is a thing? Er... Your stage. It's a thought Mike - it's a belief, and it is feasible, yes. Though hardly provable. Luckily it bypasses much of the typical religious morals, which instantly makes me have a higher respect for you. As to your actual question: Can consciousness exist from something? This is obviously a deep chasm between our views of the world. You think that there is a spiritual aspect to consciousness - and thus you say "yes." I, on the other hand, believe in almost entirely secular reasoning, and say "no." I understand entirely where your theory comes from. Actually, in a strangely disconcerting manner, as I sit here I can fill out most of the gaps in the thing. I know how I would explain heaven, and god, and, your idea of a spiritual consciousness. Still, I cannot bring myself past the illogical nature of a supernatural consciousness, and thus I'm stuck with my atheism. However, if there where a god, I would almost expect it to be extra-terrestrial in nature. I remember my father and I discussing some of my sci-fi book themes, and me bringing up one of my plots consisting of a galaxy which, in a pulsating big-bang universe, was on the very edge of the expanding material, allowing it to escape the eventual collapse and last for an unimaginable amount of time; it’s inhabitants evolving physically and technologically till nothing was beyond their grasp. And, from a planet far removed from the universe, they control and manipulate the seeds of intelligent life through the universe. Of course, this also does not allow for much of a spiritual context, so I suppose it’s still lacking. I am an athiest as well. At least in the sense of believing in the "God of Abraham." An angry, vengeful entity sitting on a throne, ready to punish those who sin against him. There's one fundamental thing everyone in the world can agree on, and that's that we're all here. If we're here, we were created. And not just us, but the universe. Whether you're a big-bang follower (I am) or a creationist (I am, symbolically), the fact remains that everything just sprouted up. What I call "God", I consider to be that element of Creation. The Singularity at the beginning, the spark of energy and light that ignited us all into existence. And what is all physical (and if you so believe, spiritual) matter aside from part of that initial spark? I think where people start to branch off is where you start attributing an element of awareness to that spark of Creation. Did the universe have a mind in the beginning? This is the fundamental difference between spiritual people and true athiests. We can reconcile that SOMETHING made everything from nothingness. It's attributing that element of self-awareness to the universe that cannot be proven, and where I fall short with my arguments. I admit, I'm not that good--I know of people who can TALK a proof, but in the end, even they have no real physical evidence. There are amazing things I've seen in my life, things which I agree have a physical cause, like seeing spirits, auras, and other such awesome sights. But in my mind, the physical is an extension of the spirit, and consiousness. Quantum mechanics is already at the point where it says that physical matter is only as substantial as the thoughts in our mind. Take that for what you will. No one will ever be able to convince anyone else of spirit, or God, or anything else. That's all self-taught. And when it's realized, it goes beyond faith or religion, and into the realm of personal truth. Which, most on that path come to realize, is universal truth.
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Post by Mistress.Nairakarn on Jul 14, 2006 17:04:20 GMT -5
So, what do you think God is and why do you think that? Even if you don't believe he is real, just think hypothetically like I'm doing. So... If my views shifted in the opposite direction: Currently 99% certain, about my lack of faith in most religions... Make that go the opposite way, and make that belief 100%... Hmm. For one thing, I think it wouldn't be a single entity, and if there was one or more of them... I think God, would either be hermaphrodidic, a sex shifter, maybe male god, and one female god, and a third third sex god, or completely neutered of sexuality... So I'd never use the word "He'. I seriously don't get whats so insulting, about the term 'it', 'thing' maybe would sound insulting, but not 'it' quite. My biggest disagreement with most, faiths, is first with monothiesm, just seems the most unlikely to me, and the same with the concept, of a either male, or female god. If God exists, and say he does... I think God wouldn't be sentient, powerful? Yes, but he is either not sentient or he just doesn't take an active role in the universe anymore, ala Cthullu or The Old Ones from the H.P Lovecraft mythos. If you're wondering why I think this, it's possibly because I don't see him having an active role, due to how much famine and poverty the world has. I would view, this God, as caring... But not necessarily in, a comforting way. If God were sentient, it would simply care about testing lifeforms, and letting everything fiend for itself afterwards... I believe it would think Might=right, and wouldn't truly love it's creations, even if it may care, simply out of amusement, or interest. And rather there is or not, isn't gonna change, that I am 99% certain, in evolution, and all that, nor would I automatically agree, with any Major Faiths, especially not the three, what I consider, male dominated, and monothiestic ones. And for some reason, a guy with a large beard and a robe and sandals, just doesn't scream all powerful. Reminds me of a mage, for some reason. (Off topic I know, but I have on topic, content included in this post, so I figure it's okay). As for him just being the 'thing' that caused the big bang (don't start me, I have complex theories about that), that could be seen as logical - or for him to be matter, it'd make him all powerful but it'd explain quite a bit in my opinion. I'm nowhere near sure, how exactly that apparently works out... But I've thought about the theory of, how the apparent Big Bang, works many times. I generally visualize it, as many VERY powerfull, massive universal, shifts in gravity, all over the entire universe litterly, and all sorts of chemicals, long waits in time, many many hard to explain things. I do personnally view gravity, as one of the most powerfull things in the universe, in a sense... I also view it as one of the most important things, perhaps it was all connected to the big bang, it keeps things together, forms planets /etc/... And yes I think things happened fairly randomly... Though it may have had more of a pattern too, for all I know. Even if it was COMPLETELY random, it wouldn't instantly mean theres a god, or some such, in my opinion.
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PrettyBurn
Squire
CAMELOT!
can't stop the signal
Posts: 1,338
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Post by PrettyBurn on Jul 14, 2006 17:27:42 GMT -5
I am an athiest as well. At least in the sense of believing in the "God of Abraham." An angry, vengeful entity sitting on a throne, ready to punish those who sin against him. I'm confused. Also, to whomever said it early, it is definitely possible to be atheist and agnostic, although we don't often use these words as their actually defined. Atheism is the lack of belief in any god. Agnosticism also is the lack of belief in any god. However, the second half of agnosticism tends to be a lack of disbelief as well, and atheism is often used to mean the disbelief in a god, so the two end up conflicting where they shouldn't. For my part: Well, I'm agnostic. I don't believe in god, but I don't have any real proof that he/she doesn't exist. So I basically just assume that it doesn't effect me. However, if a god does exist, I doubt he's some gigantic, all powerful man living up in the clouds. God would have to be some strange, unexplainable force, either conscious or random, which existed totally free of the laws of the universe.
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Post by comike14 on Jul 14, 2006 17:30:43 GMT -5
I am an athiest as well. At least in the sense of believing in the "God of Abraham." An angry, vengeful entity sitting on a throne, ready to punish those who sin against him. I'm confused. Also, to whomever said it early, it is definitely possible to be atheist and agnostic, although we don't often use these words as their actually defined. Atheism is the lack of belief in any god. Agnosticism also is the lack of belief in any god. However, the second half of agnosticism tends to be a lack of disbelief as well, and atheism is often used to mean the disbelief in a god, so the two end up conflicting where they shouldn't. For my part: Well, I'm agnostic. I don't believe in god, but I don't have any real proof that he/she doesn't exist. So I basically just assume that it doesn't effect me. However, if a god does exist, I doubt he's some gigantic, all powerful man living up in the clouds. God would have to be some strange, unexplainable force, either conscious or random, which existed totally free of the laws of the universe. I don't believe in the literal God of the Bible. I believe God is everything that is, and can't be relegated to a single conscious entity. He is everything that is. Does that clear the confusion a little? I'm not actually an athiest--only according to tradition.
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Post by bigphatty on Jul 16, 2006 6:36:12 GMT -5
God punishes those who do not abide by his rules. He set them out for us to follow, and if we don't we pay the price. He gives us free will which we can use for or against him.
And I remember someone saying,don't remember exacly who, that if he's such a merciful God why does he kill people? And, if he doesn't want us to go to hell, why does he kill those who haven't had a chance to become at peace with God?
Answer to first question:
He kills them to prove a point, that he is there and ruling. he judges them according to their future actions.
Answer to second:
He kills them and judges them based upon what their future would bring. He is all knowing and powerful and knows how each and every one of us will turn out in life sinner or not. And when he kills those, he knows whether or not we would've come to our senses had he not of killed us.
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Post by comike14 on Jul 17, 2006 10:30:02 GMT -5
But how do you reconcile the fact that God gave us free will? With human free will, even He can't see what our future would bring, so He can't judge us based on what we are going to do. To do so would prove Him wrong from the beginning. And God is infallable.
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pilaf
Foreman
Out of step with the world
Posts: 455
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Post by pilaf on Jul 18, 2006 3:39:01 GMT -5
What is God? A manmade concept for a higher being. Any similarity to reality can neither be proven nor disproven and is a matter of faith, and often a frustrating hindrance of the progression of science and society.
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Gold_skywalker
Squire
Official Forum Socialist
Darth Caedus
Posts: 1,121
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 18, 2006 4:49:30 GMT -5
What is God? A manmade concept for a higher being. Any similarity to reality can neither be proven nor disproven and is a matter of faith, and often a frustrating hindrance of the progression of science and society. I know, aren't we such pains in the ? ;D
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