Twitchmonkey
Gallant
Dragonzord Hooker
I like hookers
Posts: 2,979
|
Post by Twitchmonkey on May 28, 2006 0:59:09 GMT -5
You know, I wasn't aware of that, care to elaborate? I cannot pass my judgement properly without knowledge of these arrangments.
|
|
|
Post by Hunessai on May 28, 2006 13:31:40 GMT -5
You know, I wasn't aware of that, care to elaborate? I cannot pass my judgement properly without knowledge of these arrangments. I have Canadian teacher that isn't going to become a citizen, for instance.
|
|
Twitchmonkey
Gallant
Dragonzord Hooker
I like hookers
Posts: 2,979
|
Post by Twitchmonkey on May 28, 2006 17:00:36 GMT -5
I have Canadian teacher that isn't going to become a citizen, for instance. What I'm concerned about is the justification for this, I'm not sure I understand it.
|
|
PrettyBurn
Squire
CAMELOT!
can't stop the signal
Posts: 1,338
|
Post by PrettyBurn on May 28, 2006 19:13:42 GMT -5
What I'm concerned about is the justification for this, I'm not sure I understand it. You can legally live and work here on, say, a green card. Also on a student visa, maybe? I dunno.
|
|
Twitchmonkey
Gallant
Dragonzord Hooker
I like hookers
Posts: 2,979
|
Post by Twitchmonkey on May 28, 2006 19:59:04 GMT -5
Well I doubt you could be a student and a cop at the same time, and I think the green card system sould be replaced with the guest worker program, and then they should not be given these sorts of jobs. Just my take.
|
|
Ratwar
Squire
Horkers Rule!
Posts: 1,981
|
Post by Ratwar on May 28, 2006 22:07:01 GMT -5
Well I doubt you could be a student and a cop at the same time, and I think the green card system sould be replaced with the guest worker program, and then they should not be given these sorts of jobs. Just my take. The guest worker program? You mean that new way for business men to piss on immigrants while keeping American workers unemployed?
|
|
Twitchmonkey
Gallant
Dragonzord Hooker
I like hookers
Posts: 2,979
|
Post by Twitchmonkey on May 28, 2006 22:17:11 GMT -5
Elaborate. It seems like a good system in theory, though anything can go wrong in actuality. We obviously can't get rid of all illegal workers instantly, that would cripple the economy, especially over here in california, and we can't invite them to stay, or else more citizens will lose out on jobs.
|
|
Ratwar
Squire
Horkers Rule!
Posts: 1,981
|
Post by Ratwar on May 28, 2006 22:34:41 GMT -5
Oh, I totally agree that the system is great in theory, but the Bush administrations ideas on implementation are horrible.
1. The program forces a minimium wage. 2. There is no fast track to citizenship offered to people in the program. 3. The visa is non-renewable after 8 years.
These three things actually make it a bad idea for foreign workers to join the program. There are basically no benefits to them. Why become legal if they're going to be hurt by it in the long run?
Another thing that the proposal says is that Guest workers can only be hired if no American workers can be found for the job. There is no way that the Federal Government can keep track of this provision.
I am all for a decent guest worker program, but the current on is an ineffective political deal. It offers workers few advantages and possible penaltys for joining the program.
Note: My information on this is about a month old, so the specifics may have changed since then. If so, I'm very sorry.
|
|
Twitchmonkey
Gallant
Dragonzord Hooker
I like hookers
Posts: 2,979
|
Post by Twitchmonkey on May 28, 2006 22:54:20 GMT -5
I think a minimum wage is important myself. The only way this could work out is with more extensive policing for illegal immigrants, as it is they can too easily just go unnoticed.
|
|
Muad'dib
Squire
Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
|
Post by Muad'dib on May 29, 2006 2:39:03 GMT -5
If by that you mean people born from other countries, then yay for stereotypical, prejudiced hatred! That's pretty unfair, jumping to conclusions like that, wouldn't you say? I did say if. If by that you mean people born from other countries, then yay for stereotypical, prejudiced hatred! Umm... no. I meant people born in this nation, to nice upper/middle class families, who went to a good school and got a good education and then decided that they were somehow qualified to make the wrong decisions for the entire country. And the people who thought that this was a good idea in the first place. Ah, ok. Thank you for the clarification.
|
|
|
Post by Vinya on May 29, 2006 2:57:19 GMT -5
Should non-citizens be allowed to join the police force, or should people be governed only by their citizen-peers? I don't understand why its so hard for people to understand the concept of citizenship. I'm not going to go to Japan(or any other country) and ask to be a cop just for the hell of it without being a citizen.....its basically saying "hey, I don't respect the laws myself to abide by them as a citizen but I'll enforce them for you"
|
|
Kained But Able
Aspirant
A generation standing with anger in their eyes...
Posts: 879
|
Post by Kained But Able on May 29, 2006 4:06:26 GMT -5
They can still abide by the laws as a non-citizen though.
|
|
Muad'dib
Squire
Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
|
Post by Muad'dib on May 29, 2006 4:25:47 GMT -5
I don't understand why its so hard for people to understand the concept of citizenship. I'm not going to go to Japan(or any other country) and ask to be a cop just for the hell of it without being a citizen.....its basically saying "hey, I don't respect the laws myself to abide by them as a citizen but I'll enforce them for you" I'm pretty sure to be a cop, one has to show a knowledge of the rules. And to get by as a citizen in any way, shape or form necessitates an appreciation of the rules. That, or intelligence.
|
|
Twitchmonkey
Gallant
Dragonzord Hooker
I like hookers
Posts: 2,979
|
Post by Twitchmonkey on May 29, 2006 4:33:20 GMT -5
But if a person is here illegally, then that shows they don't know the rules. The only exception to this I suppose would be a green card, which is a system I'm not sure I care for anyway.
|
|
Kained But Able
Aspirant
A generation standing with anger in their eyes...
Posts: 879
|
Post by Kained But Able on May 29, 2006 4:34:27 GMT -5
Surely there's a difference between being a non-citizen and being illegal?
|
|
Twitchmonkey
Gallant
Dragonzord Hooker
I like hookers
Posts: 2,979
|
Post by Twitchmonkey on May 29, 2006 4:41:00 GMT -5
In select cases, yes. I do believe one must have a green card though, which, like I said is a questionable system.
|
|
Muad'dib
Squire
Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
|
Post by Muad'dib on May 29, 2006 5:08:05 GMT -5
But if a person is here illegally, then that shows they don't know the rules. The only exception to this I suppose would be a green card, which is a system I'm not sure I care for anyway. To say you assume being here illegally is a rejection of rules shows a lack of something. Empathy, maybe. I'd call it a narrow world view. People do not leave their country for no reason. Its because they might be living under a tyrannical regime (which I suppose would make me wonder how much better America is. Thats semi-sarcasm.) Surely there's a difference between being a non-citizen and being illegal? I'm not 100% on that, but its a very insular system of dealing with immigrants in the U.S.
|
|
Twitchmonkey
Gallant
Dragonzord Hooker
I like hookers
Posts: 2,979
|
Post by Twitchmonkey on May 29, 2006 8:28:02 GMT -5
Being here illegally is simply that, illegal, those that break laws should not be the ones that enforce them.
|
|
|
Post by Vinya on May 29, 2006 11:11:50 GMT -5
Surely there's a difference between being a non-citizen and being illegal? of course there is. my point is that a person who wants to be a cop but doesn't want to be a citizen is holding a double standard. a non citizen is a holder of a green card or visa, someone staying the country for an extended period of time without pledging "this is my home". Illegal immigration is just, well, illegal. its not as hard for someone holding a green card or visa to register for citizenship, as the case may be with immigrants. There are only a certain number of legal immigrants allowed in each year; however I don't think there is a limit to holders of visas.
|
|
Ratwar
Squire
Horkers Rule!
Posts: 1,981
|
Post by Ratwar on May 29, 2006 12:15:29 GMT -5
its not as hard for someone holding a green card or visa to register for citizenship, as the case may be with immigrants. There are only a certain number of legal immigrants allowed in each year; however I don't think there is a limit to holders of visas. Actually Vinya, I'm pretty sure that there is a limit to the number of visas every year. Anyways, I don't think that we should keep legal immigrants from holding jobs in police forces. Getting citizenship isn't walking into a Governmental office and filling out a form. It is a process that takes years to complete. If someone is capable of enforcing the laws of this country, why worry about a piece of paper? Plus, it can be very hard for some groups to obtain citizenship, *cough* young males *cough*. I know an immigrant from Venezuela who has been waiting for over a year after the rest of his family got citizenship.
|
|
PrettyBurn
Squire
CAMELOT!
can't stop the signal
Posts: 1,338
|
Post by PrettyBurn on May 29, 2006 12:40:57 GMT -5
To say you assume being here illegally is a rejection of rules shows a lack of something. Empathy, maybe. I'd call it a narrow world view. Umm.... isn't illegal the same thing as a lack of rules? I don't see how "illegal" and a "rejection of rules" don't mean exactly the same thing...
|
|
|
Post by Vinya on May 29, 2006 13:15:35 GMT -5
its not as hard for someone holding a green card or visa to register for citizenship, as the case may be with immigrants. There are only a certain number of legal immigrants allowed in each year; however I don't think there is a limit to holders of visas. Actually Vinya, I'm pretty sure that there is a limit to the number of visas every year. Anyways, I don't think that we should keep legal immigrants from holding jobs in police forces. Getting citizenship isn't walking into a Governmental office and filling out a form. It is a process that takes years to complete. If someone is capable of enforcing the laws of this country, why worry about a piece of paper? Plus, it can be very hard for some groups to obtain citizenship, *cough* young males *cough*. I know an immigrant from Venezuela who has been waiting for over a year after the rest of his family got citizenship. no, but it can be done. like I said, I wouldn't barge into some other country and be like "okay, let me be a policeman, but I won't even bother making this my recognized home". If you want to be police in different countries, just join INTERPOL or get over it, for Christ sake
|
|
PrettyBurn
Squire
CAMELOT!
can't stop the signal
Posts: 1,338
|
Post by PrettyBurn on May 29, 2006 14:31:51 GMT -5
Actually Vinya, I'm pretty sure that there is a limit to the number of visas every year. Anyways, I don't think that we should keep legal immigrants from holding jobs in police forces. Getting citizenship isn't walking into a Governmental office and filling out a form. It is a process that takes years to complete. If someone is capable of enforcing the laws of this country, why worry about a piece of paper? Plus, it can be very hard for some groups to obtain citizenship, *cough* young males *cough*. I know an immigrant from Venezuela who has been waiting for over a year after the rest of his family got citizenship. no, but it can be done. like I said, I wouldn't barge into some other country and be like "okay, let me be a policeman, but I won't even bother making this my recognized home". If you want to be police in different countries, just join INTERPOL or get over it, for Christ sake I totally agree with the idea that if they don't want to be a citizen, they shouldn't want to be in our law enforcement. But, I think what Ratwar is saying is, what if they're planning on/in the process of becoming a citizen but haven't become official yet?
|
|
|
Post by Osama Bin Laden on May 29, 2006 14:55:51 GMT -5
Actually Vinya, I'm pretty sure that there is a limit to the number of visas every year. There is a limit on nearly all the visa's, but theres one workers visa that doesnt have a limit per year. L1 or something like that. Also doesnt require the employers to pay minimum wage to the people with this visa. You can pay them next to nothing if you want.
|
|
Ratwar
Squire
Horkers Rule!
Posts: 1,981
|
Post by Ratwar on May 29, 2006 16:03:15 GMT -5
no, but it can be done. like I said, I wouldn't barge into some other country and be like "okay, let me be a policeman, but I won't even bother making this my recognized home". If you want to be police in different countries, just join INTERPOL or get over it, for Christ sake I totally agree with the idea that if they don't want to be a citizen, they shouldn't want to be in our law enforcement. But, I think what Ratwar is saying is, what if they're planning on/in the process of becoming a citizen but haven't become official yet? Well, that's not exactly what I meant. I don't think that citizenship should matter. After all, if they can do the job, why not let them do it? US citizenship doesn't mean the person is automatically better qualified to enforce US laws.
|
|