Why do people link transgendirism & homosexuality?

[Mistress.Nairakarn]

Sorry if the title didn't make much sense, transgenderism and homosexuality, are two long words so I had to sort of alter it a bit, to make it fit.

Okay I know I've grown closer to some people, ever since I stopped feverently, debating in the debate section and I don't want to risk, causing much conflict after starting that sort of 'bond', so I'd prefer this stay a Discussion and not a debate. Also I am not interested in debating myself I just want to see other peoples opinions. First I'll post the main points, for those who would rather just get the main points, near the top, then get into other somewhat unrelated details and rants at the bottom.

Okay why are homosexuality and transgenderism, of any sort so closely associated, as I would have named this thread, had the Title fitted?

And whats up with the steriotype, of masculine lesbians and feminine gay men? Does it have a partial ring of truth to it? Or is it just that it is more accepted?

And why do some percieve homosexuality in a male as feminine, or as masculine in a female? Why does it seem so many gay guys are more feminine, than straight guys and same for lesbians and straight women?

And also another thing I notice: Many more gays seem to admit, to being even partially bisexual than straights. Am I getting to something here or just reading too deep?

And I mean no offense to guys like Thief, but why are so many open gay guys almost typically flamboyant? I know many are quite macho, but most seem, to have a strong feminine side which particularly over rides, they're masculine side. And I know of many gay guys who don't LOOK feminine, but they sure act it.

Perhaps it's the same in the case of many lesbians?

Well those were my main points hope I started something of actual interest, here. Also something I'd be interested in anyone, who cares to answer sharing they're opinion: What necessarily makes a person gay? Predominantly being attracted to the same sex? Or having you're dream person the same sex?

Alright now to all the 'really long post' stuff, and my more indirect questions tied into transgenderism and homosexuality. Don't bother below this paragraph, unless you want to see a massive rant, but while were on the subject of homosexuality and transgenderism itself , I would appreciate seeing peoples opinions.

Is it just me or does the media seem to perpetuate negative, steriotypes? I've been questioning my own sexuality a LOT lately, all I know for sure is that I am not pure heterosexual and that I am not purely homosexual, so I have felt a bit touchy lately.

Though I identify as androgynous, I do admit I have a strong feminine side, but at the same time not to sound arrogant, and not that they shouldn't be tolerated but I feel disgraced, by the steriotypical feminine gay man.

Yes I have some strong feminine sides even if I don't necessarily, consider myself feminine as a whole, but I don't talk in a high lispy voice, I don't have limp wrists I don't wiggle my hips, I don't wear tight bright or womens clothing, neither do I attempt to make my physical appearance purely feminine.

Not that I mind guys like that, but in my opinion they do seem to give any guy, deviating from what society sees as 'masculine' a bad name in my opinion, just because I have a strong feminine side, doesn't mean I have a high pitched nasal voice, or wear womens clothing. It also doesn't mean I don't have some things, which are masculine about me. And no I don't identify as a 'tran' quite either.

I have nothing against these guys, but I hate being lumped in the same group, by society.

(No offense meant Thief if you're reading this, I don't mind others who do such, I just don't like being steriotyped and lumped, in the same group).

Also a lot of these guys I notice that TV seems to love, putting in the spotlight, have none of what I call "Androgynous beauty" about them, sure they may not be that manly, but they still look fairly similar to typical guys.

It's just wondering if I could technically be homosexual myself lately, has put quite a bit of stress on me, and a bit of conflict between myself and the Mainstream gay community, even if were allys I still hate being lumped in the same group.

If you bothered reading all this: If a guy is not attracted to masculine men AT ALL, and is attracted to 90% of females, and has no attraction whatsoever for 90% of males, yet they're dream person is a androgynous or feminine male, what are they?

While I am predominantly attracted to females, I prefer people technically male, and it's possible the group I may be attracted to, is somewhere from androgynous to feminine. After a lot of curiosity it appears my primary attraction, is towards BOTH androgynous and feminine males in roughly equal proportion.

But I'd say only about 10% or less, of the male population is even remotely androgynous, at the same time, so that kind of contradicts things.

I've never heard of a gay guy, who can never be attracted to masculinity, I may find EXTREMELy subtle bits of masculinity even a bit attractive, but ONLY if there is a strong predominance, of feminimity over powering it.

And lastly on the area of sexual identity, I still don't know what I am, and I am curious what others would think of me.

I've never seen a guy with such a strong feminine side, who actually likes having a tiny bit of facial hair, and has no desire to cross dress or have girly mannerisms. Also I don't know of any other guys with such a strong feminine side, who can be so... Animalistic. How many of these guys do you see, talking in deep growly voices and strutting around like a normal guy?

And yet ironically at the same time, I've sometimes though to myself "I don't like womens clothes... On either gender", I wouldn't even want to see a girl dressed that 'feminine', a lot of things seen as 'feminine' I simply see as weak. On a honest note I could see myself as a extremely animalistic neandrathal like, version of a tran... Only I don't like being seen as purely feminine.

On the same note I've never seen a guy, who can be so absent of feminimity in some ways, and yet seems to like more than a bit of feminimity in physical appearance, and fantasizes about playing, VERY feminine roles in relationships.

Also I don't like people assuming I am female, being mistaken for a female all the time, is not gratifying for me, what gratifys me, is when people have trouble telling either way. It's like I am exactly half a typical guy, half a full blown transgendered person.

Picture a typical tranny, minus the urge to actually be a female, I KNOW I don't want to be anywhere near pure masculine, but I also know that I sure as heck DO NOT want to be 'all women', I'd rather be something purely neutral. And I don't want to be appreciated for masculinity or feminimity, but rather for both of them combined within me in equal amounts.

For example if someone I am attracted to, admires some of my less masculine traits, thats more than cool with me, but I take it as extremely offensive, if someone automatically jumps to the conclusion, that it must mean I am "All feminine", even if they admire it, I am most certainly not, and I don't regret being boilogically male, or have any desire to be a real female either.

How can I be so primal beast like and animalistic, and yet be so feminine in some ways, at the same time? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? And I feel like the only male alive, with a strong feminine side, who actually enjoys posessing subtle amounts of masculinity, such as a deep voice or barely visible goatee. Or maybe it's just one of the major factors, in my feeling androgynous?

I am too masculine to be a "Transgirl", but to feminine to be like anything else born male, it is very confusing to me, I haven't heard of any cases that similar to my own, and would be interested in seeing if anybody knows, of those with cases similar to you're own.

The main questions I want to directly ask after posting this: Do you consider me heterosexual bisexual or homosexual? And if a bisexual which way would you say I tend to lean? As for my gender identity itself, out of everything you have heard of, have you heard of anything even remotely similar to what I am describing?

Or is my case almost completely unique in you're opinion?

And lastly: Feel free to talk about anything related to homosexuality, or transgenderism yourself here.

(I Hope this wasn't too long which it probably was, but I want to see other peoples opinions on this, I've been dying to ask these questions for ages now).

[Twitchmonkey]

I'll get to your rant later (damn your posts are long Nair, but I'll deal with the main parts here:

And whats up with the steriotype, of masculine lesbians and feminine gay men? Does it have a partial ring of truth to it? Or is it just that it is more accepted?

My guess is upbringing and genetics have an effect on your sexuality, and those may also effect your masculinity/feminity as well.

And why do some percieve homosexuality in a male as feminine, or as masculine in a female? Why does it seem so many gay guys are more feminine, than straight guys and same for lesbians and straight women?

See #1, I don't think homosexuality is inherently seen to make a man more feminine or a woman masculine as an act or way of life, it just so happens its practitioners are often this way.Then again there are those some call bers or lipstick lesbians, that defy this.

And also another thing I notice: Many more gays seem to admit, to being even partially bisexual than straights. Am I getting to something here or just reading too deep?

I suppose when you've taken that initial leap, you start to be more open to alternative things.

And I mean no offense to guys like Thief, but why are so many open gay guys almost typically flamboyant? I know many are quite macho, but most seem, to have a strong feminine side which particularly over rides, they're masculine side. And I know of many gay guys who don't LOOK feminine, but they sure act it.

See #1.

[thaddius]

First off, I think that this takes the record for longest post.

Now to address the post.
As to your first question, many people see any deviation from heterosexuality simply as homosexuality, though it may not be so. The stereotype of masculine lesbians and feminine gay people comes from the fact that it is assumed that one has to masculine to be attracted to women and feminine to be attracted to men. From my personal observations, the stereotype holds true for about half of the homosexual population.

The only other question that I feel competent addressing at the moment is the perpetuation of negative stereotypes. The media does so because an extremely large sect of Christians (a good portion of the overall population) do not accept homosexuals; sad as it may be, the media portrays homosexuals in a negative light because they can get away with it. It wasn't that long ago when Black people in this country got negative attention from the media.

For the questions you asked about yourself, ultimately you will have to figure those out. It may take some time, but that is best answered by you.

That is just one man's opinion.

[Mistress.Nairakarn]

twitchmonkey said:

I'll get to your rant later (damn your posts are long Nair, but I'll deal with the main parts here:

Meh I thank you and anyone else responding here for bothering, to read them at all.

twitchmonkey said:

My guess is upbringing and genetics have an effect on your sexuality, and those may also effect your masculinity/feminity as well.

Right neither nature nor nurture, and perhaps not all cases being the same. Perhaps in some cases nature in other cases, nurture and in others a mixture of both. I'd agree to this, if thats what you implied.

twitchmonkey said:

See #1, I don't think homosexuality is inherently seen to make a man more feminine or a woman masculine as an act or way of life, it just so happens its practitioners are often this way.Then again there are those some call bers or lipstick lesbians, that defy this.

Agreed and it would make sense as well I guess, even if sexual identity and orientation ARE different things, that they can often times be related. So it would make sense if a sexual orientation 'deviance', would also results in sexual identity deviances typically, even if thats not always the case and there are exceptions.

twitchmonkey said:

See #1.

I guess I am just atypical for both groups, and not even mainstream for what I call the "Counter Mainstream", Counter mainstream as in Mainstream homosexuality, being opposite to Mainstream heterosexuality.

thaddius said:

First off, I think that this takes the record for longest post.

Now to address the post.
As to your first question, many people see any deviation from heterosexuality simply as homosexuality, though it may not be so. The stereotype of masculine lesbians and feminine gay people comes from the fact that it is assumed that one has to masculine to be attracted to women and feminine to be attracted to men. From my personal observations, the stereotype holds true for about half of the homosexual population.

True I'd agree to that, both things you said there.

Like the Binary "Either/Or" views society, has on gender and human sexuality, And again much like with what I responded to Twitchmonkey's post with, it would make sense that sexual orientation 'deviants' typically, but not always results in things affecting sexual identity as well.

thaddius said:

The only other question that I feel competent addressing at the moment is the perpetuation of negative stereotypes. The media does so because an extremely large sect of Christians (a good portion of the overall population) do not accept homosexuals; sad as it may be, the media portrays homosexuals in a negative light because they can get away with it. It wasn't that long ago when Black people in this country got negative attention from the media.

Agreed I'm starting to feel less ashamed, of possibly leaning more to the deviant side, as I look into things.

The less I buy these steriotypes, the less ashamed I feel. I can also see into other peoples such conflicts.

Like for example there may be a huge conflict between, homosexuals who match the steriotype and at least the homosexual Mainstream, and the atypical ones who don't meet or conform to the steriotypes.

It does seem quite similar to some things possibly going on with, blacks a bit back. One group embraced the steriotype they were given, as 'empowerment' while another, found the other blacks who kept perpetuating that said steriotype as offensive.

I'm just making assumptions here anyways.

thaddius said:

For the questions you asked about yourself, ultimately you will have to figure those out. It may take some time, but that is best answered by you.

I've lately been looking deeper into things, and the internet and breaking negative steriotypes has helped a bit it seems. I probably will have to search perhaps more than a bit more, but at least I am not like myself, back in the days when I still saw things black and white, and hadn't known much about bisexuality or androgyne, having known only about transgenderism and steriotypical homosexuality.

thaddius said:

That is just one man's opinion.

I thank you for bothering to read through all that, and give you're opinion anyways. Glad I finally asked these questions, to get them out.

[darkhelmet]

Hormones. Gay guys have more estrogen, lesbians more testosterone, thus they embody the traits of the other sex.

Simple answer, but hopefully that answers some of it.

I'll post some more when my mind comes back.

[Hunessai]

I do not believe sexual identity is tied directly to sexual orientation. (Although it often follows a trend.)

One can identify themself as a gay man, straight man, gay woman, and straight woman in their minds. There are masculine gay men and feminine lesbians.

On a further note, it is not necessarilly "on" or "off," but a broad spectrum.

[Randalf]

Ok... first I want to say that the media does have an affect on every aspect of our culture. Even though it does seem to portray gays and bisexuals in a negative light it still does affect gay or bisexual culture. Take the admitantly gay shows that are on TV, or even the gay people that are shown/portrayed on TV-they are all very feminine gays.

TV wants to portray the stereotypical gay man/lesbian woman because it is a character that is only recently developing. When blacks were first taking on roles in movies they were portraying an extremely stereotypical role of themselves.

This is to say that gays are portrayed to the public eye as distinctly feminine, having high lispy voices, limp wrists, the whole 9 yards, and this is what the young gay or bisexual culture sees.

Gay and bisuxual people are still basically shunned by society, people don't generally want to just announce they are gay or bisexual or androgynous (I don't even really know what androgynous really means.... if you care to explain better) but they feel apprehensive that they won't be accepted, and the sad truth is that often people won't.

So the young gay/bi/androgynous people see the stereotype of who they feel they are and they begin to emulate what they see.

And also another thing I notice: Many more gays seem to admit, to being even partially bisexual than straights. Am I getting to something here or just reading too deep?

I am not really sure what you mean by this.. but I think you are saying that it seems that more gay people will admit to actually having some desires for women than straight people will admit to having some desires for men (in the case of a man, vise-versa in a womans case)

If so, I think you may be reading too deep. The mind is made to connect with the opposite sex, just as the body is made to connect with the opposite sex... even in a fully-fledged gay person I think perhaps some animalistic desire for women (however faint) may always be apparent, meaning more gay men who do have at least some desire for women. On the other hand I think many many straight guys truly have no desire for a man.

Of course all of that is still generalization, but it is what I think.

[Hunessai]

Androgynous is to bisexual as gender identity is to sexual orientation.



The levels of hormones a baby is exposed to while in the womb and a short while after birth has a large effect on their gender identity and possibly sexual orientation. It is during this time that the brain develops certain characteristics that are permanent from then on- even hormone treatment can not change them. This is primarily the size of a certain part of the brain whose name escapes me at the moment.


As a woman gives birth to a multitude of boys, she becomes more and more resistant to the higher levels of testerone. Thus, a third boy is likely to be more feminine than a first boy.

[Randalf]

Hunessai said:

Androgynous is to bisexual as gender identity is to sexual orientation.



The levels of hormones a baby is exposed to while in the womb and a short while after birth has a large effect on their gender identity and possibly sexual orientation. It is during this time that the brain develops certain characteristics that are permanent from then on- even hormone treatment can not change them. This is primarily the size of a certain part of the brain whose name escapes me at the moment.


As a woman gives birth to a multitude of boys, she becomes more and more resistant to the higher levels of testerone. Thus, a third boy is likely to be more feminine than a first boy.

Ohh... I get lost in all of these chemical/medical reasonings I understand them, sure, but I don't know hardly any of the chemical reasons for things.

[Mistress.Nairakarn]

Good to see this threads a "Living one", thanks everyone who bothered reading this, good to see things are getting interesting. ;D

Hunessai said:

I do not believe sexual identity is tied directly to sexual orientation. (Although it often follows a trend.)

One can identify themself as a gay man, straight man, gay woman, and straight woman in their minds. There are masculine gay men and feminine lesbians.

On a further note, it is not necessarilly on or off but a broad spectrum.

Agreed 100%, I am just curious why society views things so binary, and why there seems to be a typical connection even if there are exceptions.

Then again a lot of cultures are based off the English language, and as far as I know both Androgynous and Hermaphrodites, are originally non English words from what I know, or so I assume.

It would make sense though wouldn't it? A cultures common knowledge, not going beyond the words it knows? Perhaps there is a link between pure English speakers or English based cultures, and none Binary Gender situations/people/etc/?

Hunessai said:

As a woman gives birth to a multitude of boys, she becomes more and more resistant to the higher levels of testerone. Thus, a third boy is likely to be more feminine than a first boy.

Wow this would explain a lot, my mother has a fairly large family it was four girls and one boy I think about, and apperently she was both the youngest child in the family, ane considered the most beautifull as well.

My mothers mother also had a tendecy to smoke even when pregnant, so my mother also probably tied in with all ready short genes, was probably also made the smallest by it.

Perhaps it had some effect on myself and my brother as well, having a tiny mother resulting in a tiny baby, since the mothers size may limit the babys size, and the babys birth size in some cases may limit they're all out growth.

But sort of... In some ways I am more masculine than my older brother, I have a deeper voice apperently a more solid bone build, but at the same time I am also despite being just a year away from 18, still shorter than he is, I also have thicker head hair, and thicker lips than he does.

At the same time despite this my hands are MUCH, larger well longer than his are, we have different fathers by the way, my father apperently has a much deeper voice, and is a lot bigger than his was, so it could explain how my masculinity out does my brothers in some ways, part of it being genetic.

Apparently I have slightly more defined muscles and my mother agrees, though my brother out right denys it. Maybe it is embarrassing to a somewhere in his twentys year old male, who identifys as masculine and heterosexual to admit to himself that his androgynous in appearance, 7 years younger brother is stronger than he is, despite also being the only one who could be mistaken for the opposite sex?

They don't know how I am on the inside yet, but I do have a androgynous appearance, that much is obvious I'd say.

I'm also generally the less aggresive and more emotionally sensitive, and from what it appears he has a far higher sex drive than my own. Is what I am describing between me and my brother, normal at all does it match what you said?

It's so strange in the more noticable things, I am the only one who is inside out androgynous, and yet I wouldn't consider myself more feminine either.

A question: Are more feminine women more likely to have feminine children? Though she was and can be a bit of a tomboy, my mother is what they call a "Girly girl". And was considered very attractive when she was younger.

Hunessai by the way you seem very insightfull on these matters, maybe you just spend a lot of time on the internet like myself? Or do you have a particular interest in such matters? You just seem to possess so much knowledge about sexual neutrality and androgyney, that you must have some interest or another in it. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Hunessai]

A question: Are more feminine women more likely to have feminine children? Though she was and can be a bit of a tomboy, my mother is what they call a "Girly girl". And was considered very attractive when she was younger.

I don't have reason to suspect that the femininity of your mother had a larger role in how you feel than being a second-born male. As I said in a previous post, hormone levels are very delicate in the prenatal stages of life.

Hunessai by the way you seem very insightfull on these matters, maybe you just spend a lot of time on the internet like myself? Or do you have a particular interest in such matters? You just seem to possess so much knowledge about sexual neutrality and androgyney, that you must have some interest or another in it. Correct me if I am wrong.

I have a lot of free time, like to research things, and am questioning who I really am. I can tell you almost anything about this sort of stuff.

[Mistress.Nairakarn]

Hunessai said:

I don't have reason to suspect that the femininity of your mother had a larger role in how you feel than being a second-born male. As I said in a previous post, hormone levels are very delicate in the prenatal stages of life.

You're probably right there, probably had more to look into yourself, where I just had assumptions.

To be honest in my case, I think the only reason I am more masculine, than my brother in some ways is simply because, I have a more masculine father. Had we had the same father, I admit that I'd probably be by far the more feminine.

I'm pretty sure how deep a males voice is, and defined his muscular build is, is a bit dependent on what he inherited from his father.

It's just interesting to think about, were half brothers and my father is roughly half a foot taller, and has a far deeper voice than his did, and every generation that goes by, it appears males on my fathers sides hands, keep getting longer and more slender generation by generation.

Also something of interest it appears, that my mothers family, I could just be making a assumption here, but sometimes I wonder if it has super male genes in it.

All the men from my mothers side, regardless of height from tiny to tall, almost always have a very long hand length. And also I am the very few second born males I know of from my mothers side, and also it would appear in my mothers side, that I am also the least aggresive male there is, and one of the few who wasn't a womanizer or such.

Yeah I have long hands but thats about it, sometimes it makes me consider, the possiblity if I am the only none 'super male', from my mothers side. By 'super male' by the way I mean someone with over one Y chromozone.

I am pretty sure males who are genetically 'macho', have a tendency to be very aggresive and such, sometimes I wonder if the only reason I seem the only, decent male on my mothers side, is the possiblity of me being the only male who isn't naturally VERY masculine.

Sorry if I sound like a raging Ego Maniac, using my own situations here. I'm just curious if a hormonal thing, could be what screwed up my mothers family, and if me being less masculine than the almost unbalancedly masculine, males it normally produces was the reason I was less screwed up myself.

Hunessai said:

I have a lot of free time, like to research things, and am questioning who I really am.

I see I'm not the only one, I think thats why you remained anonymous and still do, trying to figure if people assume you're male or female without knowing, perhaps it helps you better understand yourself.

[ExtraCheeZ]

I didnt read any of the posts because I'm alergic to ones larger than my hand.

But I dont link transgenderism with homosexuals as far as I know to be honest I've never realy thought about it...

[Hunessai]

One who possesses two Y chromosomes has a syndrome known as "Jacob's Karyotype." Those males usually are extremely aggresive. It is not inherited, but affects 1 in 850 males. source

[ShadowLynx]

In New Zealand people frequently link the two subjects together because they have all been given rights and now can all marry and have kids...

While I am a strong anti-gay and -transgendered person, the people in our government believe that gays and transgendered people are really people...

And the media do have a lot to do with it...

[WitchBoy]

archangel said:

the people in our government believe that gays and transgendered people are really people...

... What?

*twitch*

[darkhelmet]

thiefonaleash said:

archangel said:

the people in our government believe that gays and transgendered people are really people...

... What?

*twitch*

Psssh, you're just a zombie. You can't fool me.

[Hunessai]

thiefonaleash said:

... What?

*twitch*

Exactly my response when I read that.

[thaddius]

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion...
Wow, just wow.

[Mistress.Nairakarn]

@ Jir.tan, Thief & Thaddius, I thought I was the only one a bit suprised by that, at first.

SL, what exactly is you're reasoning if you're comfortable explaining? If it's too touchy for these forums don't feel like you need to say it, I don't want to risk this becoming a flame war.

But you never came accross as the religious type, so I am very curious why you would be so Anti-Gay/Trans/.

And I also know of some people Pro-Gay, but Anti-Trans, or some people Pro-Trans but Anti-Gay, though I'd say the former is far more often.

[ExtraCheeZ]

The only difference between homosexuals, transgendered and straight people is a few genes and hormones. Anybody who chooses to persicute because of this is extremely ignorent or extremely stupid. If you realy want to look down your nose at people because theres a few different molecules in their body then you realy have issues.

Then again I can see the scientific reason to persicute people who are different... so we cant look down our nose at the intollerent

[Cortana]

Laissez le peuple faire comme il faut, I should think. Whether it be genetic or preference, however you view it, how is it harmful or detrimental to society that people be happy in the privacy of their own homes?

I haven't seen much media coverage that puts homosexuality in a negative aspect, but I have seen a whole lot of harmful stereotypes. That's where you get the idea that all gay men are flamboyant, or that all lesbians are butch. When I hit college, I was surprised to find out people I had always known to be straight were actually bisexual or even homosexual. I know some very effeminate lesbians, and some masculine gay men. Transgendered individuals have the power over their own bodies to do with them what they please. For the most part they already dress the part, and the majority of the time no one else can tell the original sex of the person in any case and should be allowed to match that sex to gender without social consequences.

[Hunessai]

*Applauds Cortana.*

[ShadowLynx]

I think you guys all know that I"m a Marxist-Leninist...

I don't need to explain that badly like the other day I had a "discussion" with ShadowBorn...

I don't want to provoke a flame war...

Cogito Ergo Sum...

[WitchBoy]

Well, at least most modern post-communists manage to be tolerant and open-minded, not kneejerk-reactionary homophobes.

Oh well, exactly what I should of expected to begin with. My ire of the rabble filth rises yet more. I used to be a communist sympathizer, but then I learned the meaning of the "ignorant masses". Hah.