The Holocaust and the doubters

[darkhelmet]

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04EFDD1631F930A15752C1A9639C8B63

So what do you think? Should this law be in effect?

I defended it on TESF before it was locked, so I wondered what y'all think of it.

[Randalf]

I think the law should be altered quite alot, I value free speech. It should be illegal for people to teach (in school or something) false history of any kind but you should be able to say it as much as you want. I can say America was freed from england with the help of alien technology, but I would hope not to get into trouble for that. Radicalist groups are aloud to spread their beliefs at rallys and such as well, I even support that, though I may hate their beliefs I support their ability to speak them.

[Hunessai]

The problem is defining false history. Every source, without fail, will be biased. It is impossible to be otherwise. Therefore, nothing should be restricted.

In the case of the Holocaust in particular, I can see why governments would want people to know that it existed because it was their justification into entering war with Germany. However, that is an illegal justification. In theory, a state is a governing body that holds absolute authority within its borders, and is thus, incapable of commiting crime. No government has the right to intervene in any other government's private workings. But I digress. The point is- no party can determine what is true, so censoring un-truths is impossible. All you are doing with laws like these is making it illegal to oppose the propoganda, and in this instance I am using the term as biased history, issued by the State.

[Twitchmonkey]

Majority wins, whatever most people think is generally what will win. Except in specific cases, such as they may have certain rules up against promoting a specific religion. But overall whatever most people think, assuming the greatest deal of evidence backs it up, will win.

[mastab]

People should have the right to believe what they want. Austria denying them back is taking a step back towards mean ol' hitler land and facism.

[Hunessai]

twitchmonkey said:

Majority wins, whatever most people think is generally what will win. Except in specific cases, such as they may have certain rules up against promoting a specific religion. But overall whatever most people think, assuming the greatest deal of evidence backs it up, will win.

News stations and text book publishers are usually one branch of an extremely large parent company (such as GE). With information that so many depend on controlled by parties with only self-preservation and growth in mind..

www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/bandwagon.html

[Ratwar]

I think such a law is really stupid. People ought to be able to think what they want to think and say what they want to say. Taking away that leads to serious violations of civil rights, since where do you stop? One day just Holocaust denial is a crime, but a few years down the road, supporting communism may become a crime. Eventually, the society stagnates becoming like China and Japan before they were forced to open their borders. Sure, this is an extreme, but it is such a horrible extreme that we must take ever chance we can to avoid it.

Hunessai said:

In theory, a state is a governing body that holds absolute authority within its borders, and is thus, incapable of commiting crime. No government has the right to intervene in any other government's private workings.

I very much disagree. A state's power comes from the people within the state. Therefore, the ultimate power within a state belongs to the people of that state, so a government is quite capable of doing things that are illegal. Secondly, since no country is totally isolated from others, there is quite a bit interdependence between states. Sorry if I'm taking this thread to far off topic.

[illicit]

darkhelmet said:

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04EFDD1631F930A15752C1A9639C8B63

So what do you think? Should this law be in effect?

I defended it on TESF before it was locked, so I wondered what y'all think of it.

He didnt denie the holocaust, he denied gas chambers in places like Auschwitz, big difference methinks. I have heard the argument that says that and they make some good points.

[TheStranger]

"You are allowed to say what you want, as long as its what we want."

[illicit]

I hate germany, they dont allow mein kampf to be sold because its hate literature, yet awareness of this would be just the thing to prevent another hitler.

[Mumble]

illicit said:

I hate germany, they dont allow mein kampf to be sold because its hate literature, yet awareness of this would be just the thing to prevent another hitler.

Keep in mind there are still groups that agree and support Hitler's ideals, and the German government wants no connection or support to be seen for these groups. The banning of Hitler's writing is an effort to remind the world they don't like Hitler idea's anymore.

And it isn't really a good reason to hate a country.

[illicit]

Sorry, I dont hate germany, I hate that fact. Germany is extremely scared of a nazi uprising, but they wont even let the populace understand the nature of Hitler or the Nazis. When the knowledge fades and that awareness fades it allows a new Hitler to take control.

[darkhelmet]

mumble said:

illicit said:

I hate germany, they dont allow mein kampf to be sold because its hate literature, yet awareness of this would be just the thing to prevent another hitler.

Keep in mind there are still groups that agree and support Hitler's ideals, and the German government wants no connection or support to be seen for these groups. The banning of Hitler's writing is an effort to remind the world they don't like Hitler idea's anymore.

And it isn't really a good reason to hate a country.

Mumble said it better than I could've. ;D

[morty14]

I personally think this law should not be in effect in any country with freedom of speech. I assume Austria has that, but they are violating with such a law. It is a very, very slippery slope to start doing such things as this. Because what happens if a very Christian political party takes hold. Maybe they decide that saying anything the contradicts the Bible is against the law. Next a very anti-Communist party takes over. Now anything that supports Communism is banned. Next a very pro-government party takes power. Now anything that disagrees with the government isn't allowed. Sound familiar? That is the type of thing Hitler did, only all at the same time. I can understand why a country such as Austria might want such a law, but it is foolhardy. Freedom is fragile, and things like this often cause a crack, a crack that can spread and break the basis of freedom.

[Star]

It's free speech. :/ If someone wants to be an hole, let them. It's up to those it affects to ignore it.

But, you have to be a real moron to think that 6,000,000 people drop dead of their own accord.

[morty14]

stargazey said:

It's free speech. :/ If someone wants to be an hole, let them. It's up to those it affects to ignore it.

But, you have to be a real moron to think that 6,000,000 people drop dead of their own accord.

You could say that those 6,000,000 never existed to begin with.
I don't know what the agruement for saying the halocaust didn't happen is, but that is a possible solution. They might also say it is highly exaggerated, like saying that only 600 people were killed, rather than 6 million. But again, I think it did happen, so I don't know what people say when they believe it didn't

[illicit]

Peoples parents have died because of the holocaust, so the 6 mil have to have existed.

[morty14]

illicit said:

Peoples parents have died because of the holocaust, so the 6 mil have to have existed.

Prove to me they weren't lying about their parents. Or that the parents didn't die for a different reason.

[illicit]

morty14 said:

illicit said:

Peoples parents have died because of the holocaust, so the 6 mil have to have existed.

Prove to me they weren't lying about their parents. Or that the parents didn't die for a different reason.

I cant do that, but you go up to someone and say the holocaust is a sham they will probably burst into tears or kick your for saying that.

[Hunessai]

illicit said:

I cant do that, but you go up to someone and say the holocaust is a sham they will probably burst into tears or kick your for saying that.

This is what is being debated. We know what the general populace's stance is on it.

If you are alluding to the bandwagon approach, it is faulty.

[illicit]

Hunessai said:

illicit said:

I cant do that, but you go up to someone and say the holocaust is a sham they will probably burst into tears or kick your for saying that.

This is what is being debated. We know what the general populace's stance is on it.

If you are alluding to the bandwagon approach, it is faulty.

I only know what I learned from my teacher, the bandwagon is where you join up because everyone else is. Kinda like Fargoth.

[morty14]

illicit said:

I cant do that, but you go up to someone and say the holocaust is a sham they will probably burst into tears or kick your for saying that.

I believe it happened, I'm just saying it is very easy to deny it happened.

I only know what I learned from my teacher, the bandwagon is where you join up because everyone else is. Kinda like [Little annoying woodelf censor].

Well you should try moving outside the school's teachings and look further. The teachers aren't always right, the books aren't always right, the stuff they teach isn't always right, it is just the most widely accepted and/or most helpful to the agenda of the government. It is normally bias and does not look at all angles.

It is stuff like this that gets teachers to love me and hate me at the same time ;D

[Gold_skywalker]

mastab said:

People should have the right to believe what they want. Austria denying them back is taking a step back towards mean ol' hitler land and facism.

Agreed

[Muad'dib]

Holy thread resurrection......

morty, I completely agree with you that schools teach what is deemed the best for people to learn, and not necessarily the truth.

I think people should have the right to read Mein Kampf, but personally I don't think I would, as I don't imagine it being any more useful than to hear propoganda in a form that i'm not usually familar with.

[Gold_skywalker]

newbiezilla said:

Holy thread resurrection......

morty, I completely agree with you that schools teach what is deemed the best for people to learn, and not necessarily the truth.

I think people should have the right to read Mein Kampf, but personally I don't think I would, as I don't imagine it being any more useful than to hear propoganda in a form that i'm not usually familar with.

Well reading Mein Kampf would probably bring in some political science about the National Socialists, just as reading the Communist Manifesto would for the Communists.