Illegal Immigration and rights of Illegals...

[King Leonidas]

So, what is your opinion on current issues of Illegal immigration in the U.S. (or any country really). I personally am appauled at the coolege protest of project minuteman that occured a month or two ago.

(Vid of it right here).
The students violated those guys' rights to freedom of speech and accused them of racism, in case nobody informed them:

Project Minuteman is involved with Illegal immigration, and frankly I'm certain that we'd throw an illegal white person out of the country just as fast as we would an immigrant of a different racial background. (well maybe there'd be a small game of "favorites" based on criminal records but you know what I mean).

Furthermore, I would've supported proposition 183(or was it 189?) had I been a Californian of legal voting age at the time it was introduced before the federal court declared it "unconstitutional."

I believe that people who have entered the country illegally should be denied all rights of U.S citizenship, (as that is after all, the piont of being a legal citizen in the first place) and that Illegal immigrants should only be entitled to the basic birthrights that our constitution adopted from John Locke.

-DL

[Ratwar]

I disagree.

I don't know the back story of that particular protest, but remember, freedom of speech allows me to say whatever I want. That includes calling what other people say stupid.

Anyways, illegal immigrants do help America out a lot. They fill a lot of jobs that no American citizens want to do.

As for taking away their rights, one of the first ones of these to go would probably be education. The problem with taking away education from illegal immigrant children is that they are not the ones at fault for being here illegally. We should not punish them by denying them education.

[morty14]

I'm going to have to agree with daedralord 100%.
Ratwar, watch the video. They assaulted people, stormed the stage of an event they weren't required to go to, destroyed things. That type of behavior IS NOT protected by free speech. You can protest, you can speak your mind. But that was private property (Columbia is a private college) and the speakers were invited there. The students had no right to protest inside of the auditorium. If you are in your house and invite some friends over to have a little rally, would you be fine with people coming and protesting inside your house? I mean, that's just silly. If the students wanted to protest, they should have done it in a more appropriate fashion. Furthermore, assault and property damage is NEVER protected under free speech and it doesn't matter if you are protesting or not. Such behavior is not allowed in a civilized society.

Now to my personal views on illegals:
I believe that they should be treated as criminals, as they are criminals. It is called 'illegal' for a reason. I think a wall/fence/both should be built on the borders, and have it manned by the military. Get our soldiers out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, South Korea, and where ever else they may be all over the world and bring them home to protect us, instead of some other nation or, worse, fighting wars for empire. Bring the Army and Marines to protect the land border, the Navy to protect the shores along with the Coast Guard, and the Airforce to patrol the skies. Have signs before the fence/wall that alert the would-be illegals to turn back, or risk bad things happening. Such bad things would be death or severe injury. If the signs are ignored, verbally alert the would-be illegals to turn back. If they again refuse, well, game over. That should stop the flow quite quickly, I would assume.

Any that somehow get past the ridiculous security can later be caught by just random checks of businesses. Just checking, say, 5% of businesses and imposing absurdly large fines on any that are caught with illegals will deter companies from hiring illegals; thereby eliminating another reason for the would-be illegals to risk running the gauntlet - there is no work for them.

The current illegals living in our country already, well, after this raised security we can grant amnesty to those currently living here. But the amnesty cannot be granted without first raising security, otherwise it is a MAJOR incentive for more illegals to come.
Furthermore, we should streamline and fix the current process of becoming a legal immigrant and citizen, in order to allow for immigration - but the legal kind. Legal immigrants carry many less of the problems compared with illegals.

[ema]

I guess all political issues are toguh to deal with. And Illegal Immigration not least of all. It's easy to say that we should deny them everything, kick them out, and give them nothing. And it's just as easy to let them all stay, give them citizenship and such, because it's a lot easier to do something like that. It's less of a hassle. But there needs to be a mid-point.

It would be unfair to grant everyone already here legal citizenship, as there are thousands of people who took the time to 1) Learn the language, 2) Pay for and earn their citizenship. And already a problem arises. Beyond learning the native language, which will come whether or not you become legal, is the money. People come here to make money and send it back to Mexico, or just because there are so many more opportunities afforded them here than there are where they come from. They are not going to spend thousands of dollars on becoming a citizen. But at the same time, this hurts the US economy. Correct my figures if I'm wrong, but I want to say it was estimated that $14 billion was being sent back to Mexico from illegal immigrants inside the US. That's a lot of money that is being taken from us and not being circulated within our country like it should.

And there are the people that live near the Mexico/US border. They drive across to have their children so that their children are legal citizens by US law, and then drive back to Mexico. And then still there are some of the same people that live close to the border, who take their kids to US schools, and then bring them back home to Mexico for the rest of the time. Is it wrong to do this? Some would say yes, others no. The problem I have is the moral aspect of it. I can't for the life of me see anything wrong with wanting your kids to grow up in a better world or environment than you yourself had, and so I can't be angry or whatever at these people that do take such actions. But I can't help but feel used. They use our schools so that they get a good education, but then they go back to Mexico so that they can become prominent figures there. And there's really nothing wrong with that either. I guess it semi-angers me because we don't see the monetary return that we should for giving these people such treatment as we do. There is no reciprocity going on. Or not enough anyway.

And part of the blame lies with us as well. We don't have enough men to cover the border. I remember awhile back where George Bush was sitting in an interview right where the fence is, and behind him you see two or three guys jump over the fence and into the US. How could that happen, especially around the President of the United States? The Minutemen are spread to thin. There simply aren't enough of them to be everywhere they need to be at the same time. Which has resulted in vigilante groups in border towns of Texas and places like that. People go out and ride around, waiting to see someone they think is illegal, so they shoot to kill (in most cases). And for what? To keep starving, poor people out of a country that was built from the most diverse population ever? Sounds a bit hypocritical to me. But then, like I said, there negative aspects of allowing them in as well.

I live in California, so this issue is much more personal to me. Last year, Vicente Fox, the President of Mexico, said we were acting very un-American because of this zealous behavior towards illegal immigration. And it's all good for him, he gets to bake the cake and eat it too. He doesn't have to worry about paying out welfare to millions of people, and he gets to enjoy the benefit of getting a lot of the money back the US. His main argument was that if we put up the 'Superfence,' his people would have to seek out alternative, and more dangerous routes into our country. And when I read that, I was a little disgusted. Oh okay, let's just let everyone come on over then. Hell, while we're at it, let's just annex Mexico. Of course, the violentyl corrupt in power over there wouldn't like that much. But meh. Agh, I hate politics, because you can write so much and never get anywhere.

[WitchBoy]

Borders mean nothing, I only submit to individual and human identity.

Break down the borders, invade without mercy. People are people are people are people are people.

[Ratwar]

thiefonaleash said:

Borders mean nothing, I only submit to individual and human identity.

Break down the borders, invade without mercy. People are people are people are people are people.

A beautiful idea, but it will never work in practice.

[WitchBoy]

Practicality is the backbone of backwards conservative sentiment and the Ancien Régime.

Extreme measures are the only manner by which anything shall ever get done.

[morty14]

thiefonaleash said:

Borders mean nothing, I only submit to individual and human identity.

Break down the borders, invade without mercy. People are people are people are people are people.

Without borders governments will become more centralized than they already are with international governments then leading to a world government and...well, let's just not.
I see where you are trying to go with that, but with the way that governments work, it will only end up creating an even worse problem.

[WitchBoy]

Actually, I tend to lean more towards internationalization of government.

Provided that said government is based on certain principles, of course.

[morty14]

thiefonaleash said:

Actually, I tend to lean more towards internationalization of government.

Provided that said government is based on certain principles, of course.

Governments are based on great principals all the time, but as they become more centralized they always get more and more corrupt. That's why I support mass decentralization whenever possible. Makes the government much more accountable to the people it governs.