The Day America Died...

[morty14]

As expected, the Senate passed it.

The Senate's version of H.R. 6166 (which can be found in whole here by searching for 'H.R. 6166' in the bill number search function or 'Military Commissions Act of 2006' in the word/phrase search) passed yesterday, marking the de facto end of the United States.

In the LA Times Bruce Ackerman (Professor of law and political science at Yale) explains how this bill can be easily used against the American people (in fact there is explicit mention of the way the bill can be used in such a way in Section 950v. b 26). Furthermore, as the definition of 'unlawful enemy combatant' is so broad that it could literally be used against any one that the United States government wants.

(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- (A) The term `unlawful enemy combatant' means--

`(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or

`(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.

(Emphasis added)
This gives George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld full power to call anyone they want an 'unlawful enemy combatant,' scoop them up off the street, and bring them to a secret military prison to be tried by a secret military tribunal.
Law Professor Marty Lederman concurs that this can easily be used against any American citizen.
Once detained, even after you get a long awaited (you lose your right to a speedy trial as an 'unlawful enemy combatant') trial, and even if you escape the near-impossible odds and get aquitted, you aren't out of the forest yet.

Don't think for a second that such provisions will not be used against the American people or anyone who comes here. That's what they said about the Patriot Act, and that was shown to be quite untrue. Very untrue. Ridiculous, really, how much they can get away with. Come on now. This is just silly. No one is safe from the madness.
Patriot Act 2 is even 'better.'

[Ratwar]

To bad that the Senate and House Bills are so different that it is highly unlikely that they'll never be rectified before this session of Congress ends. Therefore, they'll die.

[Hunessai]

The current state of America is reminding me of the late Ottoman Empire plus a little Nazi Germany. I hope the bill dies. I hope many of their bills die.

Edit:

Damn. "After a heated debate, the Senate eventually passed the bill by a 65-34 majority, a day after the House of Representatives passed an almost identical measure. President Bush is expected to sign the new legislation in a matter of days." - www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2381222,00.html

Nevermind.

[morty14]

That was my opening link, Hunessai

[Hunessai]

I know, I just read that part in reference to Ratwar's claim that the two bills were radically different. We're screwed.

[Ratwar]

Ah, the House passed a new measure... A few days ago they were saying it was hopeless...

Well, if we all go together, we might be able to get a group discount while travelling to Canada.

[Hunessai]

Hehe, I hope so.

[Gold_skywalker]

Have fun with that, eh?

[Ratwar]

goldskywalker said:

Have fun with that, eh?

Well, the drinking age is lower in Canada, so there's no real question about it... Anyways, I'll stop spammin'.

[Twitchmonkey]

Careful what you say in here. The CIA has this place bugged. They'll have you up in Gitmo faster than you can say maple syrup.

[Gold_skywalker]

twitchmonkey said:

Careful what you say in here. The CIA has this place bugged. They'll have you up in Gitmo faster than you can say maple syrup.

I honestly doubt the government cares about a 15 year old dissenter from the Party.

[Twitchmonkey]

You mean a 15 year old hardened terrorist, right?

[Gold_skywalker]

Yep, damn us 15 year old terrorists, who aren't even strong, hasn't fired a real fire-arm, and does not know a bomb from a car engine!

I should probably exit the thread before I spam more.

[Cow Guru (Admiral jimbob)]

Silly Americans.

[Twitchmonkey]

goldskywalker said:

Yep, damn us 15 year old terrorists, who aren't even strong, hasn't fired a real fire-arm, and does not know a bomb from a car engine!

I should probably exit the thread before I spam more.

But many of them have played Grand Theft Auto, which is the equivalent of 3 fatwahs and a jihad in real world terrorist training.

[Raist]

Wait so I misunderstand this..what does this mean?

[Cow Guru (Admiral jimbob)]

raistlinmajere100 said:

Wait so I misunderstand this..what does this mean?

It makes the following situation completely possible.

Random guy in street: "Hey, dudes, I don't think Bush is doing a great job with this new breathing tax and a-"

Police: "UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT! STOP RESISTING!"

*Guy is arrested, is never seen again*

[Leviticus]

Come on now... some of the statements here are a bit outlandish. Keep your nose clean, don't hang out with terrorists and don't take up hostile acts against the gov't or the establishment... and you have nothing to fear from this bill.

If the fears of some here were warranted, then there'd be no analysts spouting their rhetoric on cable news. They'd all be persona non grata on some archipelago somewhere.

[Gold_skywalker]

twitchmonkey said:

goldskywalker said:

Yep, damn us 15 year old terrorists, who aren't even strong, hasn't fired a real fire-arm, and does not know a bomb from a car engine!

I should probably exit the thread before I spam more.

But many of them have played Grand Theft Auto, which is the equivalent of 3 fatwahs and a jihad in real world terrorist training.

Jesus Christ, that's... Nine-eleven times Three-thousand four-hundred and thirty-nine...

I don't even know what that is!

No one does...

[morty14]

leviticus said:

Come on now... some of the statements here are a bit outlandish. Keep your nose clean, don't hang out with terrorists and don't take up hostile acts against the gov't or the establishment... and you have nothing to fear from this bill.

Oh, just like how they didn't use the Patriot Act in non-terror related cases. And like how the Bush Adminstration/Regime hasn't been torturing people. And like how they aren't detaining people in Gitmo without ever giving them a trial.
Yeah, what do we have to fear from this government?

If the fears of some here were warranted, then there'd be no analysts spouting their rhetoric on cable news. They'd all be persona non grata on some archipelago somewhere.

Oh, yes, certainly no one has the feeling that maybe they could help others. Certainly there is no one out there with any regard for the lives of their fellow Americans, which would compel them to stay here and help get the word out about this kind of oppressive legislation. Everyone in the United States is completely self-centered and has no regard for anyone else on the planet, most especially not their friends and family. Again

This is a step further than any government has ever gone. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and the like just did things like this. They didn't have the nerve to codify it in law and write it down. They are just throwing it in our face and coming right out and saying they will do it. The very reason to do such a thing is to scare people into fleeing. That just means less dissent later, which is a-ok with them. But apparently it isn't working, as people are reporting on it, and they are speaking out against it. Why do you insist that everyone should roll over and die?


Speaking of stuff that is just unheard of, I didn't put this in the original post because it wasn't the big issue, but this bill also retroactively pardons Bush and all his minions of any war crimes they may have committed since 9/11. I wonder why they would be so interested in doing something like that? Could it be because they actually had committed war crimes? I'll let you answer that for yourself.

[Raist]

So what is Bush out to do exactly? As it seems he's more evil then he's lead on...

[Leviticus]

morty14 said:

leviticus said:

Come on now... some of the statements here are a bit outlandish. Keep your nose clean, don't hang out with terrorists and don't take up hostile acts against the gov't or the establishment... and you have nothing to fear from this bill.

Oh, just like how they didn't use the Patriot Act in non-terror related cases. And like how the Bush Adminstration/Regime hasn't been torturing people. And like how they aren't detaining people in Gitmo without ever giving them a trial.
Yeah, what do we have to fear from this government?

Show me where an innocent person where this Act was perpetrated upon. The white house administration does not torture people, the CIA and military intelligence does, and they are enemy combatants captured in the field of battle killing or attempting to kill our soldiers. And last I saw that's all who are at Gitmo. No innocent people who only voice their discontent by legal, non-violent means have been detained.

If the fears of some here were warranted, then there'd be no analysts spouting their rhetoric on cable news. They'd all be persona non grata on some archipelago somewhere.

Everyone in the United States is completely self-centered and has no regard for anyone else on the planet, most especially not their friends and family. Again

Way to go with broad generalizations there! It is not only false, but a ludicrous statement as well.

This is a step further than any government has ever gone. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and the like just did things like this. They didn't have the nerve to codify it in law and write it down. They are just throwing it in our face and coming right out and saying they will do it. The very reason to do such a thing is to scare people into fleeing. That just means less dissent later, which is a-ok with them. But apparently it isn't working, as people are reporting on it, and they are speaking out against it. Why do you insist that everyone should roll over and die?

Baloney! Those psychotics you mentioned are self-appointed evil dictators who ordered the deaths of millions upon millions of their own people. The present, elected, leaders aren't even close to that comparison. As far as the last line in your above statement, I never insisted anything to that effect. Don't put words into my mouth.

Speaking of stuff that is just unheard of, I didn't put this in the original post because it wasn't the big issue, but this bill also retroactively pardons Bush and all his minions of any war crimes they may have committed since 9/11. I wonder why they would be so interested in doing something like that? Could it be because they actually had committed war crimes? I'll let you answer that for yourself.

I'm not familiar with this bill, so I'll have to get back to you on that.

edit: I just clicked on the youtube link. CNN's Cafferty is just one of those analysts I mentioned above. He's only stating his opinion and will distort the facts because he is a Bush hater too. I do agree with you though, It seems suspicious on exactly why that pardon stuff was inserted into the broader bill that passed the House.

[morty14]

Having some trouble with quote feature?

leviticus said:

Show me where an innocent person where this Act was perpetrated upon. The white house administration does not torture people, the CIA and military intelligence does, and they are enemy combatants captured in the field of battle killing or attempting to kill our soldiers. And last I saw that's all who are at Gitmo. No innocent people who only voice their discontent by legal, non-violent means have been detained.

How long do you have? There is a massive list of such cases. But, if you read my first post, you'd already see some examples. Visiting a toy store? A strip club? Against a reporter? Perhaps against liberal painters? Against age old immigration violators (while they leave the borders open, of course)? How about against doctors and scientists? These are all the same links you could have found in the original post I made. Look at this. The INSTANT you become an 'unlawful enemy combatant,' even if you are a UNITED STATES CITIZEN, you lose ALL your rights according to our government. They just detained that guy, no charge, no trial, nothing. Just detained him. Oh and there's that little issue of illegal wiretapping. Do you see what this country is becoming?
Oh, and about the torture, you have no problem with children being sexually tortured in front of their parents? No problem at all with that? You have no problem with the United States ripping up the Geneva Convention just like it has been ripping up the Constitution? You have no problem with the Supreme Court telling the Bush regime that they can't torture people and in response the Attorney General and lackeys like John Yoo just writing a memo saying, 'Oh, it's not torture, it's "pressure," so go ahead and keeping doing it.'? You have no problem with that?
You don't think they are illegally detaining people at Gitmo? Well, excuse me if I think that the Supreme Court has a better grasp on the law than you do. Oh, and I think Amnesty International may have a better idea on what kinds of things are going on there - including torture and lack of actual charges being brought against them. Lawyers who have actually BEEN to Guantanamo might have a better idea how the 'trials' work there too.
Unless you fashion yourself the Overlord of All Knowledge, I would consider retracting the statements you made.

Way to go with broad generalizations there! It is not only false, but a ludicrous statement as well.

That was the generalization that YOU made, not me. You said, and I quote, "If the fears of some here were warranted, then there'd be no analysts spouting their rhetoric on cable news. They'd all be persona non grata on some archipelago somewhere." Meaning that they cared more about themselves than anyone else and would allow everyone to slowly be brought into a complete police state to ensure their own safety. That is what YOU implied, not me.

Baloney! Those psychotics you mentioned are self-appointed evil dictators who ordered the deaths of millions upon millions of their own people. The present, elected, leaders aren't even close to that comparison. As far as the last line in your above statement, I never insisted anything to that effect. Don't put words into my mouth.

Show me where Hitler has put into law his ability to randomly detain anyone for any reason he wants. Show me where Stalin has codified this. Mao? Anyone besides this current adminstration? I am not aware of any legislation EVER that has said this. EDIT: Quick note for you, Hitler was elected.
Oh, and btw, it is wise to note that Bush has yet to be elected. You might want to check out this thing called 'election fraud,' it is popular these days.
And you DID insist that. I'll requote you as many times as you want, it will be the same thing every time: "If the fears of some here were warranted, then there'd be no analysts spouting their rhetoric on cable news. They'd all be persona non grata on some archipelago somewhere"
That reads: If this was true, then all the people who know about it would run away.
These are your words, not mine.

I'm not familiar with this bill, so I'll have to get back to you on that.

Wait, you're joking, right? You are trying to analyze something you don't know anything about? Are you kidding me right now?

edit: I just clicked on the youtube link. CNN's Cafferty is just one of those analysts I mentioned above. He's only stating his opinion and will distort the facts because he is a Bush hater too. I do agree with you though, It seems suspicious on exactly why that pardon stuff was inserted into the broader bill that passed the House.

Oh, yes. Anyone who doesn't like Bush and his tyrannical government must be a looney who has no idea what they are talking about. Yep, that's what it is.
The reason it was put in was the reason Cafferty said, violating the Geneva Convention is a felony. And that makes a whole lot of felons in our government. Plus this bill gives them the ability to continue committing war crimes. Not like Bush was ever a big fan of the 'law' anyway. He is above it and all.

[Ratwar]

Alright, I've done a little more research, so I can make a slightly more educated responce (which will be short, since this is infringing on my gaming time).

Anyways, I agree with Morty that this is an unconstitutional bill. I hope the Judicial Branch strikes it down with it's might unconstitutional hammer of Judicial review. (Now is this hammer 'unconstitutional' since it strikes down unconstitutional things, or is it unconstitutional, since it isn't mentioned in the Constitution?) Still, I have slightly more faith in our government than Morty, as I don't believe that this will be used to attack American citizens (or at least isn't intended to be used to attack American citizens). I think the bill itself reaks of election year deals, and I hope it gives everyone another reason to vote (and tell friends to vote) democrat this fall, to balance the powers of the President.

[morty14]

Since we are on the topic of voting, let me run through the Democrats who DID vote for this death-to-all-America-stands-for piece of legislative garbage in the Senate:

Carper (DE), Johnson (SD), Landrieu (LA), Lautenberg (NJ), Lieberman (CT), Menendez (NJ), Nelson (FK), Nelson (NE), Pryor (AR), Rockefeller (WV), Salazar (CO), and Stabenow (MI).

In the House, the following desp1cable (apparently the racist term for Hispanics is censored even in the middle of words...) Democrats voted to end the Bill of Rights and Constitution:

Andrews (NJ), Barrow (GA), Bean (IL), Bishop (GA), Boren (OK), Boswell (IA), Boyd (FL), Brown (OH), Chandler (KY), Cramer (AL), Cuellar (TX), Davis (AL), Davis (TN), Edwards (TX), Etheridge (NC), Ford (TN), Gordon (TN), Herseth (SD), Higgins (NY), Holden (PA), Marshall (GA), Matheson (UT), McIntyre (NC), Melancon (LA), Michaud (ME), Moore (KS), Peterson (MN), Pomeroy (ND), Ross (AR), Salazar (CO), Scott (GA), Spratt (SC), Tanner (TN), and Taylor (MS).

These Democrats can be considered just as bad as a Republican at this point.

The following Republicans in the House voted NO to giving Bush dictatorial power:

Bartlett (MD), Gilchrest (MD), Jones (NC), LaTourette (OH), Leach (IA), Moran (KS), and Paul (TX).

Senator Chafee from Rhode Island is apparently the only Republican Senator with any sense left, he too voted against this abhorrent bill.

Consider this when you go out and vote.

Oh, and Ratwar, there may be a slight issue with judical review. Gonzales could end up pulling a Gonzales, what a shocker that would be >_>