Muad'dib
Squire
Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 25, 2006 17:52:14 GMT -5
I decided to make a thread here to discuss this as i've seen it hinted at in other forums i've been to... What you ask? Drugs in spirituality. For this thread, i'll start off with The Peyote Way Church. Peyote, for those unfamiliar, is a psychoactive drug, and from that link, Before someone comments on the effects on the brain, i've got a link on that. So, looking back at that link to the peyote way, do you all think of that church as a place thats trying to just get money? Do you think drugs are no way to go about your life spiritually? What do you all think on the subject? I'm expecting a lot of naysaying, and i'm more than likely still going to want to do it, but I think this could make an interesting thread Oh, and please, don't come in with a "Drugs are for losers" attitude. Its not productive.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jul 25, 2006 19:02:35 GMT -5
Drugs in religion is like stereoids in the olympics.
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Muad'dib
Squire
Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 25, 2006 19:26:01 GMT -5
Cheating?
Who're we cheating? Ourselves?
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Post by lucia on Jul 25, 2006 19:29:52 GMT -5
I wouldn't do it, simply because I don't like doing things I don't understand. If you feel it would help you, then go for it.
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Gold_skywalker
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Official Forum Socialist
Darth Caedus
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Post by Gold_skywalker on Jul 25, 2006 19:33:11 GMT -5
Why would I alter my mind? I'm already twisted as it is.
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Post by WitchBoy on Jul 25, 2006 20:26:11 GMT -5
Hm, altered states of conciousness induced by drugs have long been associated with religion. I find no fault in it at all.
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pilaf
Foreman
Out of step with the world
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Post by pilaf on Jul 25, 2006 22:13:15 GMT -5
Although I support the legalization of certain drugs out of the sheer principal of being a liberal, I don't think my comments on drug use or the people who abuse them would be appropriate or constructive.
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Muad'dib
Squire
Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 25, 2006 22:15:58 GMT -5
Although I support the legalization of certain drugs out of the sheer principal of being a liberal, I don't think my comments on drug use or the people who abuse them would be appropriate or constructive. When you say that, i'm curious if when you say drug use or the people who abuse them that these two people are in very different groups. Your post suggests you do, I just wanted to clarify.
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Post by Osama Bin Laden on Jul 25, 2006 22:47:11 GMT -5
I agree with ShadowBorn on this.
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Post by thaddius on Jul 25, 2006 22:53:09 GMT -5
Why would one need a church to expereince that?
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Muad'dib
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Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 25, 2006 22:55:52 GMT -5
Basically, because its trying to get people together so that the constitution will recognise it as for religious reasons, not some random person here and there going out for a trip.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jul 26, 2006 8:42:43 GMT -5
Cheating? Who're we cheating? Ourselves? Nothing to do with "cheating". Convincing yourself something is real when youve used a substance to obtain it. An LSD tripper will tell you that in their moments of clarity everything makes sence, much to do with things like spirituality, but in reality those things dont actualy make sence, youve just altered your perception of reality... much like an insane person beleiving that every ones out to get them, it seems real, but in the end, its just not real.
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Post by comike14 on Jul 26, 2006 9:25:48 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DimethyltryptamineHere's another chemical, DMT, which is found in every living thing with a brain, naturally. It's release upon death to help the body cope with the stress of dying. It's purely natural, but its effects are more powerful than those of LSD, marajuana, ketamine, or any other mind-altering narcotic. When inhaled, you have 8 seconds after the first toke before you are ripped from this reality into a different state of consciouness. You don't know anything but the world around you for about 30 minutes, and there are no after-effects or known side-effects of its use. People have commonly come out of it with the classic state of spiritual enlightenment, and most people are affected by this for life. They all no longer fear death, they have a greater appreciation for life, and they feel at one with the universe. This coming from people they used in lab testing of the effects of the drug. The concept of drugs in religion is just as old as the concept of religion itself. Peyote buttons have been harvest and used since the beginning of native american civilizations. Cocaine has been found in the fingernails of ancient Egyptian mummies. Ancient druidic practices sometimes involved the earliest forms of LSD, simply a fungus that grows on bread. And licking toads is actually an ancient spiritual practice from tribes in South America. Mushrooms too have been used all around the world to acheive a controlled state of transcendence. Drugs in religion/spirituality, if used properly and responsibly, induce "mystical" experiences and altered states of mind, ones in which the user feels a detatchment from self and immerses in ultimate reality. I look at it as a tool, much like a car driving to some place. You could always walk there, and ensure your safe arrival. Or you can hop in a speeding car which is a more dangerous, but much faster route to your destination. Using these drugs, of course, is not without risk. Not all experiences are reported as pleasant. For example back in the 1200s AD, there was a tribe in what's now Arizona that used Peyote buttons extensively in their practices. One of these practices involves having an initiate drink a tea made from Peyote, and they would guide him underneath a temple, through long, dark passages with not torches. Peyote, like any other hallucinagen, causes pupil dilation, so they could actually see in the dark. They would be lead through twists and turns, becoming increasingly paranoid, until they emerged into a chamber that housed their "God". It was a pillar off black rock, carved with stranges faces all around. There was an underground river nearby, and the sound of the rushing water was deafening. The initiate would see the horrible faces and hear the rushing water, and that would completely freak him out. It was described as an "incredibly terrifying and powerful experience" in some carved references from the period. Under the effects of DMT, as well as Ketamine, people report out-of-body experiences, and meeting other conscious entities. Some are good and provide useful information, some are neutral, and some are plain evil. So, as you can see, drugs in religion aren't the one-way ticket to trancendence. In addition to the other obvious harmful effects they have, the experience could tear you apart. Do drugs in religion prove that states of enlightenment are purely a product of the brain? Because people can induce themselves into such states with chemicals, does that mean ALL such experiences are just our minds playing tricks on us? Certainly not. It just means that the brain actually does have a role to play in achieving them. Ketamine: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketaminewww.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine.shtmlwww.lycaeum.org/drugs.old/synthetics/ketamine/www.near-death.com/experiences/lsd03.htmlDMT: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptaminewww.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/LSD:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSDwww.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtmlfaculty.washington.edu/chudler/lsd.htmlPeyote:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyotewww.erowid.org/plants/peyote/peyote.shtmlpeyote.com/www.peyote.net/
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jul 26, 2006 9:57:13 GMT -5
Now I want to try DMT o.o
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Muad'dib
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Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 26, 2006 13:03:05 GMT -5
I have a lot to say on this topic, but I just can't seem to find the way to express it. Extra, when you say about altering our sense of reality, thats most probably true, but our sense of reality gets changed every moment. I'd consider this as more of a leap in that direction... Comike, thanks for the info there I'm after reading a lot on the DMT there, most of interest to me was other peoples experiences... Having read a few of those, this one in particular, I definitely feel it will be worthwhile. Whoever posted that sounds a lot like me.... Except, of course instead of it having to be this particular drug, i've gone from LSD to wanting it to be shrooms/peyote. Can't gather thoughts, but thanks a lot, Comike
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Post by comike14 on Jul 26, 2006 13:23:30 GMT -5
I have a lot to say on this topic, but I just can't seem to find the way to express it. Extra, when you say about altering our sense of reality, thats most probably true, but our sense of reality gets changed every moment. I'd consider this as more of a leap in that direction... Comike, thanks for the info there I'm after reading a lot on the DMT there, most of interest to me was other peoples experiences... Having read a few of those, this one in particular, I definitely feel it will be worthwhile. Whoever posted that sounds a lot like me.... Except, of course instead of it having to be this particular drug, i've gone from LSD to wanting it to be shrooms/peyote. Can't gather thoughts, but thanks a lot, Comike NP man. Also, in conjunction with meditation, sub-anesthetic doses of ketamine induce incredible experiences.
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Muad'dib
Squire
Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 26, 2006 13:25:59 GMT -5
Thanks I'll be reading over all of the links as time allows it.
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Post by Anon on Jul 26, 2006 13:59:43 GMT -5
I find it fitting to the true nature of spirituality that people have "religious" experiences through hallucination.
"Known" being the key word here.
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Muad'dib
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 26, 2006 14:08:40 GMT -5
Anon, just because people have experiences through one form, doesn't mean people don't experience it in other forms.
For instance, if I was to play games on my PC, you wouldn't assume all gamers were PC users, would you?
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Post by Anon on Jul 26, 2006 14:12:51 GMT -5
Anon, just because people have experiences through one form, doesn't mean people don't experience it in other forms. For instance, if I was to play games on my PC, you wouldn't assume all gamers were PC users, would you? That wasn't the point I was making. What I meant, maybe I wasn't clear enough, was that a fair amount of spirituality is based on people seeing things and thinking the things they see are something they're not.
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Post by comike14 on Jul 26, 2006 14:56:56 GMT -5
Anon, just because people have experiences through one form, doesn't mean people don't experience it in other forms. For instance, if I was to play games on my PC, you wouldn't assume all gamers were PC users, would you? That wasn't the point I was making. What I meant, maybe I wasn't clear enough, was that a fair amount of spirituality is based on people seeing things and thinking the things they see are something they're not. Unfortunately, just because they're seeing something weird doesn't mean what they're seeing isn't real. I don't need to make the point again that reality is simply perception. Whether that perception is via interpretations of sensory input, dreams, or hallucinations, your own reality is what you perceive. You can't deny spiritual experiences because some spiritual experiences are brought on by chemical substances. Anything you experience, in this physical world or not, is just chemicals rushing around your brain anyway. Suppose the effect of these drugs isn't that the chemicals themselves make the user hallucinate, but that the chemicals shut down certain aspects of the brain that prevent people from experiencing a true reality all the time. Who are you to say that's not the case? No one can make that assertion because, when we get down to it, we know nothing about what true reality is. Nor do we understand anything about the brain.
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Post by tartilus on Jul 26, 2006 20:48:17 GMT -5
That wasn't the point I was making. What I meant, maybe I wasn't clear enough, was that a fair amount of spirituality is based on people seeing things and thinking the things they see are something they're not. Unfortunately, just because they're seeing something weird doesn't mean what they're seeing isn't real. I don't need to make the point again that reality is simply perception. Whether that perception is via interpretations of sensory input, dreams, or hallucinations, your own reality is what you perceive. You can't deny spiritual experiences because some spiritual experiences are brought on by chemical substances. Anything you experience, in this physical world or not, is just chemicals rushing around your brain anyway. Suppose the effect of these drugs isn't that the chemicals themselves make the user hallucinate, but that the chemicals shut down certain aspects of the brain that prevent people from experiencing a true reality all the time. Who are you to say that's not the case? No one can make that assertion because, when we get down to it, we know nothing about what true reality is. Nor do we understand anything about the brain. Hey, if you get right down to it, we know nothing. The only real truth is the existence of yourself, as expressed in the statement : "I think, therefore I am." You can assure your own consciousness' existence, but outside of that you need to accept the rest of our facts at face value. To dwell too deeply on such things is to float in a sea of indecision - it's almost impossible. I'm all for self-examination, but I've worked myself into terrible fits of depression, the kind that lasts for months, just trying to reason out the truths of our existence. I'd end up depressed, with naught but weak answers and even weaker assumptions. Sad stuff, buddy. Sad stuff. Anyway, I've read a book on the peyote debate - one which is actually sitting on my guest bedroom nightstand. I'll go see if I can get the title. My stance, however, is simply this: I do not have the time nor the energy to stop people from hurting or deceiving themselves. When the world is perfect, I'll be right there arguing against drug-induced visions. Until then, I think said visions are only a result of the drugs, and I believe that they should be able to harm themselves in any way they wish. I'm all for the war on drugs, but peyote is hardly a killer, and my priorities swing me toward other conflicts. Besides, it’s not as if the peyote-way church is going to be restricting my freedom in the future. There are bigger fish in that regard. Edit: It's a pretty good book.
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Muad'dib
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Kwizatz Haderach
There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 26, 2006 20:58:45 GMT -5
Until then, I think said visions are only a result of the drugs, and I believe that they should be able to harm themselves in any way they wish. I'm all for the war on drugs, but peyote is hardly a killer, and my priorities swing me toward other conflicts. Talk about mixed signals. First, you seem to be saying people who want to take peyote should be allowed to even if it harms themselves, then you say you are for the war on drugs? As in, in favour of illegalization? Prison for "criminals" on possession or whatever charges? The fact you are more worried about other priorities doesn't change the fact that i'm curious about your exact stance on this issue. Assuming you didn't make a typo earlier and you are against drugs being legal, then I see you've got a right amount of self interest there, from what I see. "Long as it doesn't inflict on my will, I don't mind." I hope i'm reading you wrong, and i'm not trying to throw out accusations, but questions.
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Post by ExtraCheeZ on Jul 26, 2006 21:02:02 GMT -5
I have a lot to say on this topic, but I just can't seem to find the way to express it. Extra, when you say about altering our sense of reality, thats most probably true, but our sense of reality gets changed every moment. I'd consider this as more of a leap in that direction... No our sence of reality does not change every minute. When you see the color blue, it remains blue, when you touch a rock, its rough. This is electrical impulses in our brain. Electricity is the transfer of electrons between atoms (or something like that, its been a while since school ). When you take a drug you replace chemicals and how electricity flows, thus, you alter your perception of reality. You may think you are talking to a god, or looking introspectively, but a schitzophenic doesnt know they are schitzophenic, they beleive in what they are seeing, because there brain is telling them things are happening when they arent, just like a drug trip.
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Muad'dib
Squire
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jul 26, 2006 21:30:30 GMT -5
Well, I don't know, really. I'm in a "stuck in a rock and a hard place" mentality on religion, as I don't have any reason to say a God exists, but part of me, a large part believes so nonetheless.
But this same "logic" if I can call it that suggests its not the Christian ideal as i've seen it at all. I guess what i'm looking at this is kind of a "I don't feel i've an awful lot to lose, but potentially a lot to gain" if you know what I mean.
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