Ratwar
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Horkers Rule!
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Post by Ratwar on Jun 1, 2006 21:50:44 GMT -5
Why? Because its got "Natural" thrown in there? Here, I owe you a cookie You need to check out a book on Economics from your local Public Library. Read it. Then argue your point. Uh, it shouldn't. Socialism isn't about taking care of the lazy guy. Socialism is talking public ownership of big companies who tend to hire people for lengthy hours, by reducing the weekly hour of work to 35 hours per week (above that is overtime) and hiring a lot more people. Unemployment is bad whatever way you look at it, and we want more employment. However, we don't want the workers to be working only to have to pay off debts like say people with kids for a child minder. This was a reply to mortys's post about giving everyone the basic needs. Unemployment is not actually bad. There has to be people out of work. There has to be a range of people to take new positions as companys grow. Not having enough people to fill positions is just as bad as having to many people out of work. Therefore the economy tends to go to an equalibruim between having too few unemployed people, which makes it impossible for economic growth, and having to many people. The equlibrium point between these two extremes is the Natural Rate of Unemployment, which most economist believe is close to the current rate of US unemployment.
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 2, 2006 2:38:47 GMT -5
Becuase I dont like change. And I dont think humankind as a whole could change for the better. So its futile to try, and we should all live with a defeatist attitude? Power on to you. Oh, so now i'll go and study the intricacies of every single country. Yeah, thats my game plan now. What? Individuals can be corrupted! Holy crap. Wow, I was blind.[/sarcasm] I'm talking about changing from an olligarchy. I know a lot about human nature. And I know a lot of the arguments like the "its in our nature to destroy ourselves" is a defeatist attitude. So should I presume you would feel comfortable with it? Also, I notice you didn't justify your position on the health care in Canada, was it? You need to check out a book on Economics from your local Public Library. Read it. Then argue your point. I will, but i'll also be looking out for capitalist propoganda. And are you sure they aren't saying this merely because it suits their/someone elses agenda? I doubt it.
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Muad'dib
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 2, 2006 5:49:29 GMT -5
I'll make this discussion a bit more interesting. Here's the socialist manifesto. If I can not articulate a logical argument to defend enough things on that, then obviously, I will have been defeated in the debate. So, any counterpoints to the manifesto, i'll try to explain, or alternatively if this is a debate, "lose" so to speak. Let the games begin.
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Post by Britney on Jun 2, 2006 13:45:24 GMT -5
I'll make this discussion a bit more interesting. Here's the socialist manifesto. If I can not articulate a logical argument to defend enough things on that, then obviously, I will have been defeated in the debate. So, any counterpoints to the manifesto, i'll try to explain, or alternatively if this is a debate, "lose" so to speak. Let the games begin. Perhaps you can begin by addressing my post directed towards you back on page 1... ? Or are you the only one allowed who's allowed to win at this game?
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Post by Osama Bin Laden on Jun 2, 2006 13:53:11 GMT -5
I'll make this discussion a bit more interesting. Here's the socialist manifesto. If I can not articulate a logical argument to defend enough things on that, then obviously, I will have been defeated in the debate. So, any counterpoints to the manifesto, i'll try to explain, or alternatively if this is a debate, "lose" so to speak. Let the games begin. Oh look at that, your trying to avoid capitalistic propaganda, but you link to a page full of socialist propagande. You truly win this argument.
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Muad'dib
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 2, 2006 14:42:40 GMT -5
That's a really funny response, made me smile after a crappy day, thanks! Glad I could entertain you. I got my share of laughs off this thread too. You think diversity in cultures and social inequality are synonymous? You think that to show your interest in diversity you can excuse social inequality? You seem from your other posts against immigrants into your country, so I get the feeling you aren't too fond of diversity in the first place. But thats more speculation based on the attitude of your posts, and the content. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your not a bigot. Actually, Socialism isn't about saying no one can be rich, its no one can exploit the proletariats so as to make their money through that means. If someone makes money through means other than worker exploitation, where is the issue? Oh, wait. There is none. Nice try, though. I'm not arguing against that, as I think I cleared up already. Just wanted to clarify in case you thought to bring the point up again. Firstly, I will repeat that the person who works their butt off is well entitled to their money. Its the people who run the sweat shops, the people who run companies which go against Kyoto policies, etc. that I personally am against, and so I have found is socialism. As for the person who sleeps all day, I am against unemployment, and I don't think that we should have to give money to those who are capable of working but choose not to. But hey, I think you better know where I stand now. Oh look at that, your trying to avoid capitalistic propaganda, but you link to a page full of socialist propagande. You truly win this argument. First of all, did you even read through it to see what they were fighting for or did you only read the introduction? Second of all, your post was about as useful as a one legged man in an kicking contest. Please don't post something unless its constructive. I enjoy your quickness to nitpick, but not back it up. Personally, the way they phrase things does seem a tad, well, "off" really but I think that the issues they bring up are mostly sound. Some are a tad vague, admittedly, but I tend to be able to find something in my head when i'm asked on something, so come on. Try next time to actually contribute something... Not too much to ask, is it? %20:)
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Muad'dib
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 2, 2006 19:15:08 GMT -5
Ok, what did I do? Why is this topic dead? People have been on all day, and i'd hardly think i'm infallible. Obviously there are holes in my logic.
Come on, someone.
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Jun 2, 2006 19:19:14 GMT -5
*Unzips his pants, takes a piss* First Paragraph: The reason there is so much poverty around the world in places such as Africa and South America is the result of two things: Constant Warfare and Tariffs. If the SOCIALISTS would allow free trade, the number of people in poverty would decrease durastically. For example, look at the US before and after the Constitution removed tariffs from between the states, the economy flourished. Second Paragraph: The reason there are problems in South America is the political upheavel. The economic problems there are a result of revolution after revolution. Once again, it is the Socialist revolutions that keep the nations down. The fact that the economy is entering a recession is not a cause to jump ship on capitalism. In a Boom, capitalism grows much faster than socialism ever will. It gives its citizens more freedom. Over the long term, it provides more economic growth. Sure, for five years or maybe even 50 years, socialism will out perform capitalism, but over 100 years, capitalism is better. Of course, I could ask you for evidence of an approaching economic recession, but I'll save that little nugget just in case you weasel out of this one. So you're basically calling it propoganda if it dis agrees with your views. Sounds a bit close minded to me... Oh, I'm sure it does fit an agenda, actually two: 1. Because they want a healthy growing economy. 2. Because they enjoy being right.
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Muad'dib
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 2, 2006 19:57:23 GMT -5
First Paragraph: The reason there is so much poverty around the world in places such as Africa and South America is the result of two things: Constant Warfare and Tariffs. If the SOCIALISTS would allow free trade, the number of people in poverty would decrease durastically. For example, look at the US before and after the Constitution removed tariffs from between the states, the economy flourished. So that the rich got richer, at the expense of the exploited. Hm. Anything to back that view up? More freedom than say, if they had a say to how companies were ran? More freedom than, say if the marketable goods were made for them and cost was based on cost of production as opposed to the pursuit of profit? Not likely. Based on what? Companies that don't follow Kyoto? Theres a difference between propoganda, and conflicts of opinion. Because they enjoy the societal inequality would probably be closer to the mark. Also, i'd advise you look on, it goes on to say what the socialist party fights for on issues.
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Muad'dib
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 3, 2006 10:54:38 GMT -5
Surely I didn't OMGWTFPWNT the opposition.
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Jun 3, 2006 22:37:55 GMT -5
Surely I didn't OMGWTFPWNT the opposition. Not really, in fact, I've just been laughing at your total lack of knowledge in the realm of history and economics, yet you base your argument on those two areas. Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go away before I laugh in your face.
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Muad'dib
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
Posts: 1,638
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 3, 2006 22:46:08 GMT -5
Surely I didn't OMGWTFPWNT the opposition. Not really, in fact, I've just been laughing at your total lack of knowledge in the realm of history and economics, yet you base your argument on those two areas. Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go away before I laugh in your face. Ha ha ha!! Thanks. You gave me a good laugh there. "I could defeat your arguments but I will not."[/ratwar's lies]
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Jun 3, 2006 23:17:33 GMT -5
Not really, in fact, I've just been laughing at your total lack of knowledge in the realm of history and economics, yet you base your argument on those two areas. Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go away before I laugh in your face. Ha ha ha!! Thanks. You gave me a good laugh there. "I could defeat your arguments but I will not."[/ratwar's lies] And here I was going to be nice and not bash your little knowledge in... Oh well, I get to have fun! No, we all got to be middle class. The US ain't the country where people are making a dollar a day... You see, in South America, there are places like this country called 'Columbia' where the official government has no power in most of the country. No economic system will work there. HAHA! We already have that freedom. You see, people do this complex thing called 'buying' where we trade money for goods and services. If we dislike a product, or a company that makes a product, we buy another companys products, and if a majority agree with us, eventually that company or product goes bankrupt or disappears from the market place. Once again, go to your local library and check out an Economics book. The specifics are more than I care to type out on an internet forum when you could save me the trouble. Yes, I'm sure college professors enjoy the low pay they get at the bottem of the capitalist rung. They'd definitely support the capitalist theory in their text books. There, happy? Have a cookie, I darsay you deserve one.
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PrettyBurn
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Post by PrettyBurn on Jun 4, 2006 1:09:05 GMT -5
*again, isn't a noble seamstress and doesn't say what she wants to*
*gives Rat a hug*
*totally working on that going to sleep thing*
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Jun 4, 2006 1:54:56 GMT -5
*again, isn't a noble seamstress and doesn't say what she wants to* *gives Rat a hug* *totally working on that going to sleep thing* Well... You leave me quite confused, but thanks for the hug... And if you haven't gotten to sleep yet, good luck with that.
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Muad'dib
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 4, 2006 8:56:07 GMT -5
No, we all got to be middle class. The US ain't the country where people are making a dollar a day... If we look at the entire population, and consider it from that perspective, then no. But then again, the rich make enough that it would make averages null and void. I'm not sure whether to consider that apathy, or just outright ignorance. So, you would argue that Col Ombia has no hope? No future? Yeah, i'll listen to you when you can't even spell the name of the country. You sure do lend some shred of decency to your arguments. Oh, and seeing as I know you like em so much, have a cookie ...And Bush only cares about Iran? Great argument, except the fact that not everyone cares about these issues, or they are ignorant to them. I'll give you an example, I was talking to someone about socialism, and he said "workers will always be exploited." I said, "Well I don't think thats acceptable." And he said, "Yeah, but at least we get cheap Nike" which is as stupid an argument (as its untrue) as it is ignorant. Perhaps you share his sentiment, though. Any books in particular you'd recommend? I'll do the reading myself then. I'm not sure what the standard rate of pay is, but I think that from where i'm standing sounds pretty good Of course I could be wrong, and I look forward to the retaliation in... Hmm... Well, maybe tomorrow if you can gather your thoughts. *again, isn't a noble seamstress and doesn't say what she wants to* Afraid it'll get you a warning? If so, then I really want to hear it. PM it ;D EDIT: I have found a book i'll try and get later today. It is by Milton Friedman - Capitalism and Freedom. And contrary to what it might seem, I don't have any delusions of grandeur, so I'll probably end up coming here seeking clarification on anything I need, well clarification on. In fact, i'll go to the library now.
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Ratwar
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Post by Ratwar on Jun 4, 2006 12:34:04 GMT -5
No, we all got to be middle class. The US ain't the country where people are making a dollar a day... If we look at the entire population, and consider it from that perspective, then no. But then again, the rich make enough that it would make averages null and void. Nice statistics.... I mean, the lack of numbers is very... interesting... I don't want you to listen, if I did, I'd send you a recording . Haha... Polls? Do those Polls include the areas of the country not under governmental control? How do you know? Oh, and just since the population supports the government doesn't make the country stable. There is still open warefare. Economys don't prosper in such a situation no matter what economic system is in place. And the socialism fairys are going to come down and make everyone care about it? The freedom is there in both systems, you must admit that. The thing is that if your argument is that they don't use that freedom in Capitalism, why would they use it in Socialism? In my country, the US, voter turn out tends to be below 50%. Usually well below that in Primarys and non-Presidential Elections. We also tend to elected horrible Presidents. I'm scared of Bush in our limited government. Why should we give more power to politicians? No, I don't. I don't think the workers of Nike are getting exploited. Why not? Because they aren't slaves. Believe it or not, they are better off working for Nike than becoming Child Prostitutes. That number is inflated by economists working outside the academic area. You know, the bankers, stock investors, and analysts. Run the numbers from college professors and you'll probably see an average around $50,000 at the highest. Perhaps quite lower. I would, but most of the books that I used were textbooks from about a year ago, and I don't actually remember the titles... Though if you want a book that trys to put forth a workable socialist system, I'd recommend Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy.
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 4, 2006 13:15:37 GMT -5
Nice statistics.... I mean, the lack of numbers is very... interesting... Ah, back to the "I could discuss this, but I will not." You don't want to answer because obviously capitalism isn't the solution, at the very least not in a place thats developing like this. Ok, i'll take out the key bits. Basically, the government is taking an approach to deal with these groups. But they are becoming more sophisticated and organised internationally. Now, I bring up the point about Iran not being as important. Well, I guess the pursuit of oil is important to Bush. When we have the FARC and AUC? Yes, something must be done against them. But consider how "well" America is dealing with the insurgents in Iraq. Now, consider a country thats not nearly as developed dealing with international crime... I think its safe to say that you decided to cherry pick here on that. But I don't mind them kind of tactics. Fair play to you, I say. Ok.. I see your point. Though you must think socialism is blind, but its a good argument. What are some of the main things a company will be doing that could be so that it is something i'd be against? Well, underpaying staff is one thing. Well, if companies are paying less than they should be paying, then we'd have that company taken over by workers councils. We would stop the attitude of profit before people. Goods would be manufactured for need as opposed to profit. Prices of goods would be based on cost of production, etc. Give some other examples, and i'll try to retaliate. Living in a two-party state, which both are two sides to the same coin... Well, that stinks of oppression to me when combined with my other knowledge of America. I'm all in favour of personal freedoms, being closer to a libertarian as I have said in the political compass thread. What power am I saying to give to the government? To increase the minimum wage? What power do you see me as giving to the government unjustly? While I am old enough to vote, I have not done so yet. And ultimately one says what affiliation they are by who they show in the ballot. So theoretically, one might say I am currently unaffilated, but based on my current knowledge i'll be voting Socialism. Most of the time, relativism is fine by me. But if you think that its ok for exploitation because there is worse cases out there, then I am really surprised by you, Ratwar. An injustice is an injustice is an injustice. I actually thought you'd have seen it that way too. I'll look into that. Thanks, I appreciate that.
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Post by TheStranger on Jun 4, 2006 17:11:58 GMT -5
So, this is an international organisation as opposed to national? All? I'm pretty sure its safe to say that if you are doing something that would earn you being fired, you probably aren't working hard. Or else, in some cases that I know of, the boss would want you to work longer weeks than you'd be willing to give (Like I know of a place trying to get people to do a 52 hour week. Thats obviously wrong. And that ties in with the 35 hour week thing too.) Politically active in school in what sense? If you are to suggest certain schools would veer towards a political leaning, its as bad as having a religious leaning. And surely you wouldn't agree to 16 year olds voting in the running of a country? Rock on! I'm not in school and i'm not sure of the way all schools are but i'm in favour of that. Pitfalls of any political party. Vague, vague, vague. I mean, on Miss Universe you can expect them to say " , I want world peace, and united peoples" but a political party can hardly go around with basically that attitude.
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Muad'dib
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 4, 2006 17:48:53 GMT -5
So, this is an international organisation as opposed to national? Yes. Well, there have been a lot of cases of people being fired for being part of a trade union... I don't think that employers rights to fire a person should be removed either, thats a bit of an overzealous point, realistically speaking. Well, a lot of the decisions taken by government does have implications on schools. And I think that politics should be taught in schools, so the age of 16 seems fair to me. Besides, its not as if all 16 year olds would vote, only those interested in voting. I mean, i'm of legal age to vote in my country, but I don't do so... Not yet anyway. Alas, yes. This is one of the main things thats making me wonder "Well, what would we do about this?" What could be done? In fact, its one of the reasons I opened this topic, as I hoped this idea would come up, and I would hear peoples opinions on it, and maybe i'd figure some kind of idea I had in the back of my mind. Not sure if I have said it here before, but I tend to think better when I have to ;D
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Post by thaddius on Jun 4, 2006 21:16:34 GMT -5
I don't feel like getting involved in this debate, but how can you over look the avarage standard of living in capitialistic nations versus socialist nations, newbiezilla?
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 4, 2006 21:29:42 GMT -5
I don't feel like getting involved in this debate, but how can you over look the avarage standard of living in capitialistic nations versus socialist nations, newbiezilla? Well, its not that simple. We have to think of the socialist nations are all really only developing now, from being underdeveloped. So its not really a fair assessment, would you say?
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Post by thaddius on Jun 4, 2006 21:48:02 GMT -5
N. Korea seems rather well devolped...
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Muad'dib
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Post by Muad'dib on Jun 4, 2006 21:54:37 GMT -5
N. Korea seems rather well devolped... They are so heavily focued on militancy that thats just one thing thats very much against them. EDIT: Also, they are Stalinist. Not Marxist.
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Post by thaddius on Jun 4, 2006 23:30:20 GMT -5
Maybe you proceeding question is hinting at a larger problem of socialism, the failure to develop.
Looking at that socialist website, it seems that the socialist are a group of lazy, fearful, and irrational citizens bent on creating a homogeneous society. A thirty five hour work week? That is ridiculously short, epically if they want a 5 pound Sterling minim wage with 7.50 as the goal. While the goal of cutting greenhouse gas emissions by 50% in 14 years is ambitious and of best intentions, how do they possibly think that doing so is a feasible goal? Going along with the rest of the weakness in their doctrine is their policy of forbidding the establishment of a fascist party. Being staunch anti-communists, the fascists seem to be more opposition than their weak governments can handle.
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